RLSH700

I was just reading in my latest Road and Track magazine and they had a test of the SRT-8 version of the Grand Cherokee which also has the 6.1L. It did 0-60 in 4.6 secs and the quater mile in 13.2 sec @ 104.1 mph. This was faster than their test of the GT500 in the 0-60 run in 4.7 secs and slightly slower in the quater mile 13.1 sec @ 112.1. Now remember that the GT500 had a 6-speed manual vs. the GC SRT-8 had a 5-speed auto. The GC has a curb weight of 4805.

My point in all of this is the GC is faster than the GT500 in the 0-60 run despite the huge weight and arrow dynamics difference and without a manual. If the GC can do it, why can't the Challenger. The Challenger will have a manual which will help the acceleration, plus it appears is will have functional air scoops that the other SRT-8s don't have, which are not listing an add to actual output. It has a K&N intake (I'm going to assume that is for the air scoops). The thing is the HEMI's power band is pretty flat and consistent which will help it against the techniques of a supercharged, multivalve overhead cam engine design.

Thoughts on this?

bored out

Good insight bro and I would agree with you that the Challenger should be quicker than the gt500 off the line. I agree that with such a steady hp/torque powerband in the 6.1 hemi, it is clear why the Challenger should be a bullet of the line. Super/turbo charged vehicles take time to get the boost up for added performance and can even sap an engine at low rpms. I would bet that when the supercharged mustang gets up to speed it will pass the 6.1 ltr Challenger because of its higher horsepower and supercharged capabilities.

In a quarter mile race the GC would have initially won off the line due to its 0-60 time compared to the gt500 but the mustang would have caught up and passed the GC before the quarter mile finish and would be pulling away because it would hit the finish line at 8 mph faster than the GC.

x-factor - Now remove 1,000 lbs., include an air intake butterfly system, put the 6.1 hemi in a low-riding retro Challenger and give it a manual tranny. Common sense tells us that this vehicle will be faster than the GC and improve on the pink slip stealing, track beating that the gt500 would receive. I would not be surprised if the Challenger is tested and runs an amazing 4.3 or 4.4 at 0-60.

Who cares what happen at 110 anyway. On the street, at a red light 0-60 is plenty fast enough to show mustang owners who the new sheriff in town is and will keep your drivers licence where it belongs, in your wallet.

RLSH700

Thank you bored out. You also made good points about the advantages that the Mustang would have at the higher end. The only thing I will counter that with is that in '98, MT compared a Cobra to a Z28 and Formula. Although the NA 4.6L 32valve DOHC engine tends to have its advantage at the higher end of the powerband, the LS1 powered F-cars pulled away after 60.

The 4.6L was able to keep up in the lower end where its design has the disadvantage, but it lost it in the range where it should have had the advantage. Now perhaps this was due to the fact that the Cobra only had a 5-speed; whereas, the F-cars had T-56 Tremec 6-speeds, but the thing that amazes me is that the Cobra was able to keep up as long as it did despite a dyno proven disadvantage in HP and TQ. The F-cars should have blown it away right from the beginning, but they didn't until they were in the range where they have the design disadvantage. It is confusing.

In short, I'm still struggling to understand why the GT500 isn't faster than it currently is, but I don't think it is good to have a serious advantage in the quarter-mile if it only does it in .1 secs faster than GC, granted it is at a higher speed but with the 1000 lbs removed with a manual will probably make up this difference.

Also remember that the GT500 is electronically limited to about 155. It appears that the Challenger will top out around 174. So I believe the Challenger will beat the GT500.

BootCamp

Wish I could remember exactly which GT500 review I read, but the author (who didn't dispute the claimed HP numbers) said he felt that "all of the ponies weren't running in the same direction". I found that to be pretty interesting.
Add to that the fact that the Challenger will have 4 wheel independant suspension, where the GT500 has a "live rear axle", and the Challenger should punish the GT500 on the twisties as well as the 1/4 mile. Remember .......174 mph aerodynamic restricted top speed on the Challenger - not sure what the numbers on the GT500 are (and I really don't care).

RLSH700

So your theory about why the GT500 is slower is that it is because of it having a live rear axle?

Very true about the top speed, but isn't it illegal to remove an electronic governor? The question then becomes what top speed would the arrow dynamics limit the GT500 to if it wasn't for the electronic governor. Neither are the best when it comes to arrow dynamics.

Thor77

One thing to keep in mind when using the Jeep SRT-8 as a basis for comparison is that it has all-wheel drive, so it can launch much harder from a stop. This gives a big advantage in 0-60 times. On the Challenger, some of the low end grunt of the 6.1 may be translated into a cloud of smoke at the starting line. Dodge still estimates 4.5 to 60 for the Challenger concept, so the reduced weight may offset the awd advantage.

RLSH700

Good observations Thor77. Welcome to the site. The other part to remember is the extra weight and possible power lose due to all-wheel-drive system. No system is perfect. I could be mistaken about this, but I believe the AWD versions of the Magnum and 300C are slower than their RWD versions.

1 Bad Mirada

a few things...

first, several owners have already proven the GT500 magazine specs to be off. a few shops have tinkered with the GT500..tinkered, not changed...and have gotten them into the 11s. owners have gotten them into the 12s with practice. keep in mind that a stock "terminator" (03-04 cobra) with only a stated 390hp and is around 3800lbs, is capable of high 12s with some good traction, which is the hard part. the gt500 is around 3920lbs and has 500hp. the challenger has "425hp", which we know is under rated, but the detcha car weighs 4160lbs, so not only does the GT500 have more power, but it also weighs less.

second, what these tests dont show are the more important numbers, like 60 foot time, and trap speed? the srt-8 jeep ran the quarter at 13.5 with a trap speed of 101.6, i believe....the gt500 ran the quarter in the high 12s in the test that i read, and it did so with a trap speed of 112mph. so in the standing quarter mile, it is going 10mph faster. to give those of you who dont race alot, 112mph is good for a high 11 second run with a good hard launch and good traction...im running mid 12s with 104 trap speed...what does this mean? it means that while in magazine, the gt500 is only a 12.90 car, its only a good set of tires away from being a MUCH faster car.

third, superchargers dont have a "spool up time"...that is the plus side to running a supercharger over a turbocharger...as soon as you are into the throttle, the supercharger is doing its job...there is no "lag".

fourth, a solid rear axle is better for drag racing. independant suspension is better for the curves because it allows the tires to move with the road freely, but for a hard launch, the "stick axle" is better...this is why ford went with the solid axle in the gt500, and this is why most 03-04 cobra owners who are set on drag racing change to a solid axle, as it makes the car easier to launch.

in short, unless dodge finds a way to put more power into the challenger, or finds a way to pull out weight, the GT500 is going to be a hard "kill"...

and need i even get into modifying? to get a bunch more power out of the GT500, all you have to do is tune it, and change the pullies, thus upping the boost...that is another huge advantage with supercharged cars. i dont know any sure numbers, but i know that the blown lightnings and cobras reap big benefits from swapping pullies.

bored out

Good points, your right about everything! After further thought, I don't see how the Challenger will keep up with the gt500, I just hope it is quick off the line!

1 Bad Mirada

oh, i dont question that with a close ratio manual trans and the 6.1L, that it will scoot right off the line...when well driven, there shouldnt be many stock domestic cars that should give it a run. the GT500 is one, as is the Z06. the difference in HP should make it quite a bit quicker than the mustang GT, even with the weight difference. the GTO seems to be a nightmare to launch, even with the 6.0L.automatic LS2 GTOs are only regularly in the low 13s in stock form, but in good conditions, they are capable of high 12s.

but other than those mentioned models, there shouldnt be any domestics, and very few foreign models, that should keep pace in the quarter mile. keep in mind that the charger srt-8 is capable of low 13s and high 12s stock, with the auto trans...ive seen one in person, running something like a 12.96. with simple mods like an intake and exhaust upgrade, as well as some good sticky tires, someone has gotten a 300c srt8 into the 12.70s, from what i understand....but in stock form, "most" srt-8 cars run very very low 13s. figure the drivetrain loss difference with the auto trans, and you have more wheel hp in the challenger...but it is also harder to launch.