09ChallengerRT

My father sent me a link to this article about a project Challenger where they are making a "Hybred" Challenger thats both Gas powered and Electric.

http://media.origin.popularmechanics...makeover1.html

RLSH700

In my taste, muscle cars and environmentalism are antonymous. I would never be caught dead in such a model. If fuel efficiency is truly the concern, they should go diesel. Diesel unlike hybrids are useful somewhere outside of the city which many muscle car fans call home. Also, the idea of diesel isn't as much a bucket of water on a fire as hybrids are. Furthermore, take a look at the sales of hybrids, the only ones that are successful are the ones for the radicals. The two markets are simply incompatible.

Colorancher

From AutoWeek Sept. 2008:

MrKrisSullivan

Really? What about the Dodge Circuit? IMO... I'm all for FUN, FAST, AND PRETTY CARS.... If they want to do that while saving money at the pump, why not? Honesty I don't care what the car runs on as long as it performs, looks sexy, and is dependable...

JJMPB

question is how much does that dodge cost?

RLSH700

I'm happy to explain this to you. The issue is I once did a report back in my college days about all the different hybrid models that were being produced and how the sales were going. With a few exceptions, the only ones that were selling were the hardcore hybrid models like the Prius and the other models that weren't so polarizing weren't selling. The reason for this is demographics. The people who wanted hybrids liked the ugly styling because it stood out and was unquestionable that they were driving a hybrid as a statement. The other models didn't appeal to them because they liked this image.

The issue is the image of hybrids to people other than certain camps in the environmentalist community is being an overpriced, not cost effective, potentially damaging to our environment in other ways, ugly, slow, lame car. That to a large degree is the problem.

Also, the other problem is you have to understand what pony cars and muscle cars are all about in the spirit. They are about rebellion and not conforming to the robot mentality of society. This by definition undercuts this image.

The reason why I'm against this is I know that hybrids do NOT get the fuel economy that they are rated at and they will take forever to overcome the price difference between it and normal models if they ever are able to thanks to the cost of battery replacement, cost of potential extra problems happening with the electrical equipment.

I am also against this because of the boiling frog model. The concept of this is if you throw a frog in boiling water, it will leap out, but if you place a frog in lukewarm water and then heat it up to a boil, frogs will not leap out of the water. What this means is if you immediately try to change people by implementing a dramatic change instantly, they will not comply, but if you slowly introduce things like this slowly they will comply. To me, they are trying to destroy our capability to own cars like these by implementing technology that will make them unaffordable and less desirable so then they can dictate another fact in our lives but doing it one step at a time and I'm not going to comply and I'm going to call this out as being what it is, a baby step to destroying muscle/pony cars.

If fuel efficiency is the concern, diesels are the wiser direction as they get long range fuel efficiency, they are quite powerful, and generally more reliable than gasoline powered cars. If the goal is fuel efficiency and cost effectiveness this is the direction they would pursue.

My feelings about the LOTUS Circuit is this. It is too small and it is NOT a Dodge. It is another example of badge engineering and if produced will more than likely fail in the long run. The issue is Chrysler has tried so many times to do badge engineering and 9 times out of 10 it doesn't work. Chrysler is better when they develop their own technology and utilize it. Now, I have nothing against the styling cues, but the strategy has been tried so many times before (Stealth, Laser/Talon, Crossfire, etc.) and ultimately it ends the same way each time.

MrKrisSullivan

You can argue that Hybrids only appeal to the hardcore enviromentilists, just the same as our Gasoline V-8's do to "Us"... That's obvious though, just as some like the Camaro for X and others like the Challenger for Y...
Yes, I understand the "image" of the Hybrid vehicle, but if were just talking "image" that's merely face value... Nothing to do with actual facts "image" is an opinion, right? It only means something to the...Lets say Be-holder? Were on the brink of making fast pretty Hybrids and the Circuit is just the tip of the iceberg, if you can follow me...
Yes, I understand what pony and muscle-cars are in spirit of course I wouldn't be here if I didn't truly know where your coming from. To make a counter point though one could argue that Hybrids definitely don't "conform" to society they are cutting edge to the highest degree...
I'm not sure if Hybrids do or don't get the fuel economy they are rated but I'd have to assume they do or were just being lied to.
I'm familiar to the Boiling frog model... The frog doesn't recognize the change in environment and then poof... no more Kermit...
"To me, they are trying to destroy our capability to own cars like these by implementing technology that will make them unaffordable and less desirable"
Honestly I don't think they are trying to do this... I honestly think there looking out for us so we CAN have our cars but with less trips to the Gas station, thus less trips over seas, and conclusively an independent economy that doesn't need foreign oil.
Also to say the above quote... could be used to say maybe I feel the same way you do about Gasoline as too DVD's... One could say they tried and succeeded in destroying our capability to own Video Cassettes, by producing newer technology that in turn has Video Cassettes becoming obsolete...???... Or the same could be said about DVD's to Blu-Ray players right?...
The Circuit is just a warm up... I think we'll see cars from all over the spectrum with Hybrids in them(I don't think this is a bad thing)... The only thing I can understand about this conflict over Hybrids is the Bragging rights... We just don't know how to compare our hybrids yet... I.E. LS1's and 2's to 5.7 and 6.1 Hemis... I feel it's a fear of the unknown so to speak...

RLSH700

First of all, I will complement you on your vastly improved communication skills and knowledge. I enjoy a challenge.

Now onto the meat and potatoes of the topic.

First of all, that is what the evidence thus far is pointing at. We can live in a dream world or look at the current evidence that says this is who it appeals to, and this is like garlic to a vampire. You have to understand that when you have limited resources and money, you have to spend it wisely. If there is going to be another hybrid model, it would be better utilized on a different model like the Caliber than it would the Challenger because history shows that segments takes to it better.

No it goes beyond face value, the issue is if the customers who want a Challenger don't care and don't like elements of a hybrid and that is going to jack the price up about $7K on top of a model that already sold for north of $30K, it will make it unaffordable. Hybrid technology isn't a simple engineering upgrade as MDS and VCT are. This redefines the powertrain altogether and jacks the price up considerably. Hybrids drive completely different than normal models. A Diesel is a much smaller adjustment than hybrids are because the engine is running at all times.

Lexus has tried that, and it hasn't been a outstanding success story. There are hybrids that in the performance category are impressive, the issue is they often get no better mileage because they were engineered for performance. In this case, everyone looses. The mileage is no better, the price is way much higher than it was before which could have been utilized for much less expensive changes like adding forced air induction to get more performance out of it.
Neither did the VW Beetle or the Microbus, the issue is they appealed to different people. Yes, the hybrids DO conform because we are doing it because "it's what We have determined is good for you." That is precisely the opposite purpose of a muscle car. It is a statement that I cannot be tamed by the "it's what We determined is good for you" mentality. Also, hybrids are not cutting edge, the concept has been around since the early 1900s actually. Given they are working reasonably now, but they aren't as new as you might think.

What is the point of getting a model where you pay as much for them as you do, make the many safety, power, smoothness, etc. sacrifices if it doesn't get the fuel mileage. It's simply illogical. Your argument ignores the evidence of models such as the Durango hybrid, Accord hybrid, and others that have been tried and failed. Not every hybrid has been a success as you seem to think it is. There are no guarantees, you risk making a model that will loose money in the long run by trying to draw conclusions where there is no evidence that demand for such a model exists.

I beg to differ, I think they are. To a large degree this is the agenda of the squeaky wheels of society. They are after large vehicles that are fun to own because they use more gas, so they pass these laws to make them more expensive and keep raising the CAFE standards. They ignore the fact that models like the Honda S2000 exist and get much worse fuel economy than V8 muscle cars. They ignore what horrible fuel economy Ferraris get and moan and complain about American sports cars which get much better fuel economy. They chastise our V8 trucks but love the Ridgeline which gets worse fuel economy than many V8 models. They are aiming for our enjoyable models plain and simple.

Also hybrids are not making us less dependent on foreign oil because they still need gasoline and oil for lubrication. Also this idea that we can somehow get free of it because we no longer need gas is ridiculous. We need oil for the tires, for the asphalt, the plastics for the interior, etc. It can't be done through this way. If you want us to become independent of foreign oil, produce oil domestically.

The DVD vs. VHS model is a bad comparison to the automotive industry. You are comparing a replacement product as opposed to an evolution of a same product. The DVDs were only more expensive at first due to new technology and because they could. Technology advances faster with consumer electronics than it does for automotive market. A VHS vs. BETA is much closer than a DVD vs. VHS will ever be. It's difficult to compare them because they are very different.

I have no problems with changes as long as they are logical changes, when I see people ignoring blatantly obvious signs that an idea is just a niche market and they try to shove it on people is when I get concerned. There is danger in trying to force people to change when they don't want to. It is also a dangerous idea to have an assumption that people who are resistant to change are acting because they are somehow ignorant. Sometimes people are resistant because they have seen where a road leads to and they don't want to reinvent the wheel that leads to disaster. I do see the hybrids as a bad thing and the increased offerings of them as such. I want fuel efficiency to improve and alternative fuels as much as anyone, I just don't want it to be at a cost that is going to make the models more dangerous, expensive, a hassel to work with, and damaging to the environment despite what some people want to think it will.

MrKrisSullivan

Ok...
I totally agree that another hybrid model would work better in a different market. Definatly not the "muscle car" one at least. I was kinda going with the assumption that people are buying the V-6 model "muscle cars" for, well excuse the pun here...LOL... "image" So... Joey buys the V-6 Mustang or Challenger just for the "image" not performance, He may also actually be worried about gas-mileage too, which it seems a lot of people are concerned about when they go with the V-6. In that theory or scenario it would totally work right? To move on down... Yes we'll have to manufactor new platforms for these hybrids... I beleive that if a platform like the LX or a LY were built from the ground up for a Hybrid powertrain we could use that platform so many different ways. You know? Just think how succesfull this platform is... Magnum,Charger,300,and now our Challenger. I don't think we should just stuff a Hybrid in this car, but engineer a platform that works and is flexible.
I think that gets to the Tenderloin of the argument...U.S.D.A Grade Prime...
It's possible that the premium on the Hybrid models is the only reason for the failure of a hybrid in a particular model.
You won't like this comparison and it is out on the limb like the VCR to DVD player.
But blue Jeans have been around for ever too. We've been able to keep it the same all the while completly changeing everything about it. Far fetched sure. Everybody wants something different though. DVD's to Blu-Ray though still to me is evolution not replacement.
So I just seriously had a major light bulb go on right now....Im just gonna end that discussion there. Alls well that ends well.
But on to the light bulb, man. Maybe im missing something or have just been working to much lately. Or we need to just make a............or you ready for it?...............Ready?..........I hope you like it................................................ .............
.......HYBRID DIESEL.........Dunh..dunh..dunh...(music in the background) + (possibly Star Wars) LOL.... It's time to move on my friend... HYBRID DIESEL... You think if we say it in front of the mirror with the lights out it will appear in the drive-way waiting? LOL... What do you think? I'm ready... Lets do it... Game over... Till next time...Peace...

RLSH700

V6 muscle cars aren't as big a joke as many people think they are. The V6 Mustang is accelerates nearly as fast as the last 5.0L Mustang GT, the problem with this theory is that it gets about the same fuel economy as a 5.0L Mustang did. The appeal of V6 models is to get the looks without having to pay the price. If you really wanted to boost fuel economy, the best way is to continue to allow the technological advancements take place that have taken place. The Hemi's mileage keeps getting better and better. The next steps they could take in the case of the automatic models is to upgrade to a six-speed that has better gearing that the Mercedes 5-speed has and possibly upgrade to a Dual-Clutch automatic to yield the best of both worlds as well as upgrading to Gasoline Direct Injection when it becomes more economically feasible to utilize. If they could ever get the MDS and the manual to get along, that would be a good step for the manual models.

From what I understand a special platform isn't the issue (in fact I believe the 200C is on the LY platform), its the fact that the R&D is high and there are guarantees that people will want them.

The DVD to Blu-ray is a more logical comparison. The problem with the diesel hybrid idea is that diesels generally cost more than gas models and adding the hybrid portion makes the situation worse. Chrysler had the same idea back in the 90s with the Intrepid ESX models and they were insanely expensive. The other issue is traditionally diesels are not the kind of engines you want to shut off and restart because they are not quite as easy to start, though they have been getting much better as technology has improved but I don't know if that is a safe idea.