Bootcamp, your first post aggrevated the hell out of me, but I can at least understand where you're going with this one. Thanks.

In response to your abortion comment, I think everyone will fully agree that birth control is a far better option. But as far as I knew, Christians were against birth control in any form. *edit, realized that made no sense(lol) and had this to add:* Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, or if you were just choosing the lesser of two evils (killing sperm better than killing fetus).

"So what about "faith"? Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to. We can't see the air around us, but we know it's there and can't live without it. Does not being able to see it mean that we can deny it's existance?
Faith (in it's MANY forms) has been with our species since the beginning of our existance. Without the belief in a supreme being and an afterlife and suffering or benefitting from the consequences of our earthly actions, we'd be a completely lawless society - living for nothing more than the moment."

I found that part interesting. That is a very scientific approach to explaining faith. There's very little religion in that statement. Maybe that's why I respect it so much. How any of that leads to "proof" that that supreme being is indeed the biblical god that you believe in, is completely up in the air. But as you said with your definition of faith, you don't require proof. My problem with people saying they have "faith", however, is that faith is completely controlled by outside factors. There may in fact be something inside each and every human being that drives us to have faith, but what exactly that belief ends up being depends on where we grew up, who raised us, our personality, etc. Someone abandoned at the age of 6 months in the wilderness who miraculously survives, is not going to grow up believing in god. They may develop a faith in something, the sun, the trees, the animals. They may even manage to come up with some sort of personal religion inside their mind, but most certainly not the biblical god that you believe in. There are so many religions in this world, and each person is "positive" that they are right, that their god is the real one. As someone who does not have a religion, how could I possibly choose? You bring that baby who was abandoned in the wilderness to modern civilization, teach him to speak, and then start teaching him about religions, what is he going to choose? How can he possibly choose. You have to teach him to believe it first, and then you have to teach him to have faith in it.

"Without the belief in a supreme being and an afterlife and suffering or benefitting from the consequences of our earthly actions, we'd be a completely lawless society - living for nothing more than the moment."

There's a few ways to look at this. The first, and I think most interesting and reasonable, is that you are 100% correct. However, not in the way that you may have intended. I don't recall where, but I had read an interesting comment from someone who did not believe in god, but believed that religion was necessary in bringing us to the point where we are today. Basically, that faith in a supreme being was a way for us to figure out what right and wrong are. I don't believe in god, but does that mean I think rape, killing and stealing are okay? Of course not. I just do not believe that belief in god is required for living a respectable life. In fact, it's completely obvious that it isn't. There are millions of people living good lives, not committing crimes, who do not believe in god. Just because their basis for morality was created by religion, doesn't mean that religion is needed anymore.

I personally, don't credit this "faith" as giving us these morals to live by. I don't believe the 10 commandments were handed down by god, I believe they were written by normal people. Even before the commandments, people were living by