I am sure they are clueless.

 

Good post and nice views on both sides. Not too keen on Gov. myself. I drive what car I want and feel economics will do the rest. That way there is a balance. Those who will pay X amount up front and try to save it on gas or those who want power and will drive another vehicle to and from work. Both will work, just pick the one that fits your life style. I feel you also have to look at the production of those said green cars and see if that is enviro friendly. Maybe not so friendly to the enviroment? But people have their views and we will always hear from the green beaners. But we have louder mufflers and we should make more noise. We are fewer, so we need to make more noise.

 

Amen!!

 

MFIllini5,
Sorry, I can believe this statement or my own lying eyes. I'll go with what I have seen and continue to see. I live outside of NYC, as such, I peer into their culture through their local media. What I get to witness is Environmentalists clamoring to shut down the Indian Point Nuclear Power plant while at the same time whining about having power deficits and perpetual brown outs.

Government is a reflection of the people and while I'm not so magnanimous as to give my talent to the lowest possible bidder for the good of the whole and be virtuous and altruistic and completely selfless....arghh.....I'm getting queasy at even typing this mellifluous dreck..... If I were born of privilege, then I would certainly be compelled to give my talents so benevolently with no or less than fair market value for my skills, knowledge and abilities...BUT...being that I grew up scrapping and wanting what others had (sure relegate me to avaricious shallow person, but I'm not only a few real material treats Chally being one and best), I guess I was tempered to be driven to look out for me and my family FIRST, friends second, community after and so on.....BUT gettting back to Government being a reflection of the people it serves, I think you're missing some key components in your observations. I think the pervasive problems in our country can't so quickly, conveniently and easily be attributed to the boogie man as personified by you as though I believe there is some truth in this, I believe it starts at culture as government, again, is a reflection of the people it serves (at least right now ours is supposed to as long as it remains a Democratic Republic), and the culture has been, IMNSHO, largely degenerated, gelded of spirit, spoon fed, given too much and expected of too little. Politicians don't lead they follow (polls, and when you follow the people blindly you teeter on mob rule, true democracy is not always the best thing) I think of my grandfather's generation not so far from mine and the sacrifices made by the entire culture and expectations and OLD FASHIONED morals, people of PRINCIPLE, and I think of what my generation is and where it's going and that's why I ruminate of a restart.

I find this statement:

particularly offensive (not only for its imbued tone of martyred self aggrandizement) as it is naively, utterly and completely flawed in logic and contradicts the very PRINCIPLES (that tenuously remain) this country was based on being free enterprise and CAPITALISM. To take a position that you are SO righteous is a specious folly. The cold hard fact is we are all cogs in a machine (at least those of us who work) and as such OUR JOBS EXIST (ALL OF US) because we "give back to others" otherwise there'd be no value in our existence, no merit for our compensation and we'd be shiftless neerdowells prospering on the GOVERNMENT (who determines WHOM shall both provide and receive philanthropy thusly forcing their very particular morals on us) teat. We give back or we become unemployed.

As for those who "whine about the government" and do nothing; I have to defer that point to you, unfortunately there are not enough people who are passionate about their "Government Job" to really try to offer the people they serve value rich return for their taxes. It is easy and therapeutic to whine (about for the most part a grossly inefficient organization who coerces you out of your income to do things on behalf of you), but you're right where apathy goes unchecked great civilizations slide and eventually perish. Th

 

NUKE THE WHALES!

 

AWWW come on now the whales.... really.

 

Damn, Skippy.... I couldn't have said it better myself....even if I were Roget!
Seriously, you expressed a lot of my sentiments quite eloquently. I agree with your analysis. Hunger (in whatever form you use the word) is a great motivator.

MFIllini5;
I DO work for a Government Agency - on a State level. I'm not a philanthropist, nor am I trying to earn myself notoriety or a prestigious award for "giving back to the community/taxpayers". I am not trying to hide my need to provide for my family under the guise of repaying anything to anyone. I work for a State Government agency because they provide me (and my family) income, for which I, in turn, provide the taxpayers with valuable and tangible services. The liklihood that the State will go bankrupt (and leave me unemployed) is remote. While I (and everyone on my staff) feels our monetary compensation is not nearly what it would be in the private sector, we accept that since our overall "compensation package" covers more than just a paycheck. We enjoy job security, a solid and stable pension plan, decent medical / dental / optical insurance plans/options, a liberal number of paid holidays, and a substantial amount of "leave" time - which increases with our service time (these benefits are VERY rare in private industry). I'm sure you enjoy similar "perks" in your job, and I didn't see in your post where you refuse your paycheck to more effectively "give back to others".

We never get everything we want. We have to compromise. The most sensible answers lie in doing what achieves the most good for the most people.....which includes those who haven't been born yet.

BTW - I'm under the impression that the disposal of batteries and un-recyclable materials from some of the "green" vehicles being made now causes more damage to the environment (excessive landfill) than buying, fueling and driving a Hummer (the anti-green vehicle, right?). That's something to think about.

 

Damnskippy and Bootcamp,

I think you are missing my point or maybe you just don't agree with it. I am saying that our federal government, many of our state governments, and even a handful of our local governments are not truly representative of "us". Government is often not a reflection of the people. I'm sure it's quite hard to make a large organization, such as the federal government, perfectly representative of 300 million people, but I am sure we are far from even close to perfectly represented.

Secondly, I think most people probably put themselves first, family second, friends third, community fourth and so on, but too many people in this country never get past the friends level. If they did, I would see a lot more of them show up at public meetings where I work at a local government and they would be there to say "hey, I would benefit from the oil refinery, don't deny it just because the 10 people that live closest to it don't want it and all ten of them are the only ones here".

Third, I can't really blame the corporations for whatever level of "infiltration" they have in our (especially federal) government since if citizens throughout its history made our government more perfect and more representative of the people over time, the corporations couldn't have infiltrated it to the extent they have, and it would be more balanced. In the historical sense, our government was the best reflection of the people that the people thought they could make it at some early point in its history, but since then its gotten farther and farther away from perfect. Therefore, I don't disagree with what you say about how the culture has degenerated, I just think it is because of the above reasoning.

Finally, with my statement about my job and how I aim to give back to others through my job, I did not mean to come across in the wrong way (see last paragraph below). What I mean is that countries are made up of various segments: social, cultural, religious, political, economic, geographic, civic, etc. Our country is obviously very lopsided towards economics, relative to other countries. The claim is often made, as you have said, that our country was founded for free enterprise and capitalism (the pinnacle of the economic segment). I disagree, I think if you really go back to the founding and read some history books, you will see the founding fathers put as much into civics and community responsibility as they put into the free market. Somewhere along the way that was lost though. And I think you're belief that we are all merely cogs in a machine furthers this now common and prevalent thought. In other words, the real "individual" in the founding fathers minds, yes any one of us ants, has a certain and specific RESPONSIBILITY to the greater good.

And now think about public schools these days...there are many more classes on math and science (and they are required classes) as compared to geography, history, civics, and the arts. All important subjects, however I believe that this country needs more kids exposed and therefore able to get an interest in the latter if we want a professionally run government. It's bad enough that most of our governments are run by elected people that have no public administration, urban planning, or similar backgrounds. Our governments are mostly elected amateurs or people with backgrounds in other fields - the most common of which seems to be business, people with business adminstration or accounting or other more narrow-minded backgrounds. I'm sorry, but government is not business and it's not meant to be. Governments are supposed to have a long-term perspective, do bold things (i.e. the Eisenhower interstate system, man on the moon), and, yes as you state for politicians, LEAD! When was the last time this happened?

I think your cable problem analogy is excellent! That is a great way to put it. However, I didn't realize it at first, but you proved my point...

 

BootCamp, Thank you sincerely.

Wow, I feel so very foolish, I forgot to mention this....my mother and father were both State Employees working for the Old Dominion at the University of Virginia and the Department of Forestry; they never seemed to revel in magnonimity and they greatness they sacrificed themselves for.

They provided valuable service to the fine folks of the great Commonwealth of Virginia, and received good livings for doing such. Proceeds from Government jobs fed, me, clothed me and helped school me along with my own efforts and help from grandparents. So, I am indebted to government both for general service provided by it and personal providence until I could make for myself, but I do not see government ever as a panacea for all woes or the source of all evil either.

 

MFIllini5,

Here's my take on what the founding fathers did. They found government to be a necessary evil. So they wrote a document showing how a federal government would work (after they botched the first attempt) and made sure that all states who ratified and VOLUNTARILY joined this union would have equal rights extended to all of them. Specifically, these rights would ensure that even though there had to be government, the individual's rights were paramount. So they drafted a "Here's how it's going to work manual for the government", this covered mechanics of government and rights of citizens. Realizing they kind of botched it again by being ambiguous as to who had the lion's share of rights so the made an addendum the Bill of Rights and said here are more rights of the individual. Finally, they concluded, if anything hasn't been covered as being the right of the individual, then assume the individual has the right.

As for government, again, it is my belief the founding fathers shrugged their soldiers and took it as a necessary evil to protect peoples rights and provide for the welfare (not the New Deal flavor either) of them.

I defend my position (and oddly it supports your position) that government is reflective of the culture it serves, so if the culture it serves is apathetic to its expectations of the governments' service provided then the government will be apathetic to the service it provides.

I could go on for an hour, or so, but I'll have to wait until I my internet connection is restored @ home by the cable company (ironically enough).

I don't compare it to a business, if it were it would have been out of business a long time ago (federal). But it should be run like one. I pay taxes for services; it's that simple. While I do own it and get to influence much of it, I have no choice in it. I own it and it owns me.

I'll resume this later...