Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Hmmm? Would that be the 5.7L and 6.1L??????


Big Three to shift into '08 models


By George Spaulding

Saturday, September 22, 2007


It's new model time! Yes, on Oct. 1, the 2008 automotive model year begins. The date affects all of us because our vehicles officially become one year older.

This column reminds readers of the new car announcement date every year. Otherwise, you would not realize the latest versions have arrived. The carmakers no longer hold introductions until the first of October; they prefer to announce the new models as they become available. That explains why the Buick Enclave, for example, hit the dealer showrooms this spring as an '08 model.

As a service, today we will highlight "what's new" for the most notable changes for the domestic brands: Ford Motor Co., the Chrysler Group and General Motors Corp. Next week, the imports will be featured.

Ford

It is good to see the Taurus, formerly the hottest-selling brand, coming back. It replaces the Five Hundred, which was a less-than-stellar performer. It is important to note that the Taurus has not been rebadged, but there are some 500 engineering updates along with a bigger V-6 engine and a six-speed gear box with the automatic.

The Mustang has a new Shelby convertible with a racing package available for 2008. The successful Focus receives a face-lift and a hands-free communication group for phones and music.

The big news at Mercury is that the Sable has returned, replacing the Montego. It comes with a new 3.5-liter V-6 with 263 hp and a six-speed speed automatic transmission.

The Lincoln Navigator now has a power liftgate, heated and cooled front seats and a power-folding third seat.

Chrysler

The Chrysler 300 now has eight models, four engine choices and two wheelbase options engineered for it. The 300 is referred to as "America's rear drive car."

The Sebring now has a new convertible. The Chrysler Town & Country and Dodge Grand Caravan feature "Swivel 'n Go," which transforms the vans into a dining car, according to Car and Driver magazine. "The second-row seats pivot to face rearward, allowing passengers to belly up to an optional removable table for a rousing game of euchre with those in the third row."

The Dodge Avenger replaces the Stratus, with a good deal of Dodge Charger incorporated in the new model. The Dodge Challenger retro comes with two Hemi V-8 engines from which to choose. The Dodge Magnum receives a face-lift plus a 425-hp engine, and the Dodge Viper, a serious challenger to the Corvette, now delivers 90 hp more.

General Motors

Buick must be pleased with the notices it is receiving on the Enclave CXL AWD. Here's Car and Driver: "Buick's big new wagon delivers excellent all-around utility — comfortably and quietly — and looks good while doing so, inside and out."

In the meantime, the LaCrosse and Lucerne have been beefed up with V-8 power, a derivative of GM's Northstar; and appearance freshening.

Cadillac was so confident of the upgraded CTS that it had a fleet tested at the famed German Nurburgring 15-mile track. Also, the interiors are rated tops in GM. Motor Trend called it, "The best damn Cadillac sedan in 50 years." The '08 STS now has a 302-hp V-6 with a six-speed automatic, and the XLR has an added LTD edition.

For Chevrolet, the big news for 2008 is the new Malibu, finally a worthwhile competitor with the Accord and Camry. It has grown 3 inches in length and 6 inches in wheelbase, with interior and exterior designs intended to attract younger buyers.

The '08 Corvette has an all-new 6.2-liter V-8 rated at 430 hp and comes with a Z51 Suspension and power-boosting exhaust. Top speed is 190 mph. Chevy HHR adds these new features: OnStar, a tire-pressure monitoring system and StabilTrak, which integrates traction control.

Pontiac's G8 rear drive gets a six-spee

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

I'm afraid so. If they had something more than the 6.1L, they wouldn't have advertised the 6.1L's output. They are going to post the highest numbers they will have available. They need to learn that you can't keep leaving engines unupdated between models, let alone generations.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't we all suspect the 5.7 & 6.1 to be the most likely offerings in the V8 as they are on the Charger/300/Magnum platform already? You sound unhappy. What were you hoping for?

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Exactly what I expected. We should remember that they have a performance division sRT and they are complemented by Mopar Performance. 425 HP is nice, real nice. If you should need more, and I will. Then you can put bolt ons that will put you over 500HP. Thats the reason we have Mopar performance. But a lot of folks want bragging rights to stock HP and performance figures. Chrysler has always answered that with a performance division. So get what you want from Mopar and also won't void the warranty in most cases.;)

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

I hate to branch of topic but i must know. I live in the tri-state arena of GA/Tn/AL and i seen someone from AL driving a Charger "daytona" edition and it said "RT" on the front grill. I asked him if he was pleased with the performance, he ignored me and drove off. Anyways whats the difference betweet rt/srt/srt-8? i know ive seen the srt-10 vipers (seen one friday night). Whats horsepower and Liter difference?

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

LX/LY platform - R/T = 5.7L Hemi V8 (340-350 hp)
SRT 8 = 6.1L Hemi V8 (425 hp)

SRT (in general) refers to the premium performance package offered for a model.
SRT 10 is available in the Viper.
SRT 8 is available on the Charger, Magnum, 300 and Jeep Grand Cherokee.
SRT 4 on the Caliber.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Well here is what I'm not entirely thrilled about. The 5.7L & 6.1L are perfectly fine engines, but the problem is the competition is catching up. I'm not concerned about whether or not the Challenger will be able to out run the Mustang versions, I'm concerned about the Camaro. To be perfectly honest, how many times did Ford win in the category of engine output against the F-body cars in the latter years of the pony car wars? Only when they made a rare expensive model, the Cobra R. Defeating Ford's effort is very simple as they do not update their engines very often, but defeating GM takes more effort. Chrysler is more than capable of defeating GM with the Hemi as they have done many times, the problem though is that GM is putting in their best effort into fighting and Chrysler is not if they do not update their engines. The 6.2L that they are offering in the Corvette on paper has the 6.1L licked supposively. I want to see Chrysler offer the 6.4L at least for the top of the line model. Just to stay competitive the Challenger has to match their competition, in order to stand out, they need to offer more power than their competition.

Beyond that, I think it would be a good idea for the sake of being considered a dramatic step up over just a better looking platform with a left over powertrain from the LX, the Challenger's 5.7L should receive a power upgrade as should the 6.1L. A power upgrade should be more than just 10hp, it should be a more significant increase that will stand out. They are about to upgrade the Hemi for the next generation trucks, they should give the Challenger whatever upgrades the truck is going to get is most of my point (perhaps the new VCT system they are now using on the Viper's updated V10).

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

The SRT line varies in what is expected from one type to another. The small SRTs (SRT-4 and SRT-6) generally is modified by forced air induction (turbocharger and supercharger respectively). The larger SRTs (SRT-8s and SRT-10s) are simply higher output, NA engines.

The first SRT-4 was offered on the Neon with the old 2.4L turbo (about 230hp & 250ft-lbs of tq), the current one is supposed to be offered on the Caliber with the new 2.4L "World Engine" turbo (engine output was originally rumored to have 300hp & 260ft-lbs of torque but it is down to about 285hp & ?ft-lbs).

The short lived SRT-6 was on the Crossfire with the MB 3.2L supercharged (330hp & 315ft-lbs of tq).

The SRT-8s as Bootcamp explained offer the 6.1L Hemi and are offered on the models he listed.

The SRT-10 was offered on both the Ram and the Viper, the Ram version appears to have been discontinued probably due to the changes made to the new V10 engine. The new SRT-10 Viper produces 600hp & 560 ft-lbs of tq. The Ram SRT-10 produced about 500-505hp & 525ft-lbs of tq.

The SRT line is currently the top performance package offered with Dodge, Chrysler, and Jeep. In truth, the R/T badge would make more sense to be used on Dodge products instead of the SRT badge. What is currently labeled as R/T would be more logical to rebadge as ES or some other badge. On some vehicles (the Viper) offering the SRT badge is really a waste of time as that is the only engine and transmission offer and really the only version in production. It would be better to save that badge and use it later for a higher performance package.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

They will update the 5.7L in the cars I'm sure of it, but the question is, how long will it take to get to the cars. This is a different company mind you, but how long did it take to put the 5.7 in the cars from the trucks? I can't remember for sure, but I think about a year. Even then it lost ten hp from the truck to the car due to the exhaust being tighter or whatever the excuse. That won't be to impresive if that happens from the Ram to the Challenger. To me this engine doesn't really belong in a truck that's meant to two anyway. Maybe if you were racing it. RPMs for power and torque are just to high to tow with.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Very true, the lazy Daimler management is not in absolute control anymore. It took two years for them to get the Hemi into the cars; however, that could partly be blamed on the fact that there weren't any cars at that time that would use it as the LH cars (Intrepid, 300M, Concorde, etc.) were still in production and the LX cars were still being developed. If you want to go by the offical year offerings, it would be two years as the 2003 Ram was the first vehicle to get the 5.7L and the 2005 300C/Magnum R/T were the first "cars" to get the 5.7L. The engine hp output dropped by 5hp; however, the tq increased by 15 ft-lbs. The lower restriction exhaust the hp actually has a 5hp increase over the Ram. The truck spec 5.7L is tuned for truck duty, the car version is tuned for car duty.

Anyways, my point is that they are going to make some kind of update to the Hemi in the Ram and I believe it would be wise to offer this ASAP in the Challenger so then they can set a higher benchmark and keep fighting full effort in the muscle car wars. The upgrade that they are planning for the truck would also help the Challenger. A rumor holds it might be a form of VVT, which helps to make the power band be more consistent and helps the fuel economy as well. The way I see it, it couldn't hurt. What I would like to see more than anything else would be GDI (Gasoline Direct-Injection). That seems to be a popular new way to improve performance and it's supposed to help fuel economy.

On the other hand, it might be a good idea to wait a couple years into production to make this change over. Increasing the engine output in the middle of production can help make a model more interesting in the middle of its run.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

As I understand it there is a HP increase in the 5.7 and 6.1. I believe I read it on Charger Forums and I'm not too sure how accurate the info was. But I believe the power will be increased for the Challenger, If I was a betting man I would bet that it will be. And yes, the Camaro is the competition for the Challenger. The Mustang... nice car but not a race horse by any means. For the Ford crowd, I hope they increase the HP. They have a long way to go to catch the LS2 and 6.1. GM is holding their cards for now and won't show their hand. But if they do have more ponies, my next call after getting the Challenger will be Mopar Performance. I love to suprise people. And before someone says that the Camaro comes out in 2009, I know... it looks like my Challenger will be 2009. Good luck Mustang and good luck Camaro... if you run into my Challenger it ain't stock. It will look stock, but I don't own 1 car that has not been modded.;)

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

I have to agree about waiting until 2009 or at least for a 2009 model.

Seems to me Dodge can only get the 6.1 going for this first model run, and I'd rather wait until they figure out all the options they want to sell before I make the plan to purchase one. It seems like this first run is to capture the excitement that has built up and sell to the crowd that just has to have one now. I really don't have to have one now...

After the dust settles and the hoopla has died down and they have to compete with the Camaro, I'm sure Dodge will be playing around with all kinds of options / and drive train options to appeal to a wider audience. I would think the 5.7 and 6.4 motors have to be in the Challenger eventually, and possibly the 7.0.

I think those people committing to get the first Challengers will be disappointed a year later when the prices have dropped and many more options exist. At least they will have that first year to enjoy themselves.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Truck tuned? Maybe built to tow in terms of it not falling apart, but definitely not truck tuned. I mean the tq should be higher in the Ram not in the cars. Also, the band for hp and tq really isn't good when it comes to towing. The arguement there is that it builds to it, but that is a very large build and a very high range to keep the RPMs in in order to access that power. 345 hp at 5,400 RPM and 375 lb tq at 4,200 RPM sound more like something that should be in a sports car or muscle car, not in a towing truck. I didn't mind because I didn't tow with it, but at the same time I knew I was never accessing the full power of that engine in my 2500. Kind of disappointing really.

I'm having a hard time doing it, but I'm pretty sure that I'm going to wait until the 09 model, which I have stated before. As someone said, I want the best that they have available and it sounds like the best is going to be out in 09. Gonna be really hard to see those going past me, but I will find comfort sitting and knowing that I will in fact own a better one once they bring out all the new toys.

As for the upgrading, are we still sure that we are still going to have Mopar Performance in the near future? Are they going to keep that part of the business?

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Lear: I hope that your source is correct. That would be an excellent way to kick off the new Challenger. The only trouble I have in believing that is all the press releases referring to the Challenger equipped with the 6.1L will have the current 425hp output. Maybe this will happen later in production. For the sake of making things interesting, I would like to see Ford improve their power without resorting to forced air induction so then they can compete as well. I would just like to see the Challenger be faster stock than resorting to aftermarket parts, because then the never ending debates happen, "Well your's might be faster stock, but now I added this and it trumps your's." These get very old. A car is normally judged by its stock capabilities. Don't get me wrong, having a modified Challenger is more than respectable, I just want to see the Challenger do better in its stock form is all.

Axel: Perhaps it isn't the best term to associate between the two but you know what I mean. You are right based on the information that we have available that the 5.7L produces that torque and hp at a higher RPM, in fact higher than even the LX car version. I think the reason why the LX cars generate more tq is partly due to the exhaust system. To tell you the truth, I have often thought it was rather weird how they have the 5.7L Hemi in the Ram set up in terms of hp and tq settings. The only thing I will say in its defense is unlike many multivalve DOHC engines without VVT, I believe it naturally has a relatively flat hp and tq curve due to the more traditional OHV set up. Although it makes most of it up high, it is pretty consistent I believe throughout the RPM range. It is also important to remember that in comparison to the 6.1L (which produces the peak hp at 6200 & tq at 4800), it isn't entirely like a performance engine it its RPM characteristics, a little more than one would like in a truck granted, but not necessarily performance engine in a performance car in its hp and tq characteristics either. If they add a form of VVT, that should help to combat the problem as what is rumored to happen.

I think it should be sufficient for towing with your 2500. I have friends who have Hemi equipped Ram 2500 who previously had 5.9L Magnum equipped Ram 2500s and they use their trucks for work purposes (farming and the such) and they said it was quite an improvement. It won't rival the Cummins nor the V10 granted, but it is certainly sufficient for most people's needs.

Lordfoul, you have pretty much summed up my perspective on purchasing a Challenger. I prefer to wait until the options start being introduced to re-stimulate interest in the Challenger. Plus, all of the first year flaws are resolved by then.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Yes, it is very true to not compare these two as they really can't be compared. Almost like they are two different engines considering the setup they have from the truck to the car. Kind of a backwards change, but at the same time it makes one stand up and take notice of how much and exhaust can make a difference on a vehicle. Can't we just eliminate that completely and throw on the pipes out the side of the car, no caty converter? Yeah, I wish. And yes, I will agree that this engine isn't terribly bad for towing and is definitely an improvement over the 5.9L, the problem that most people complain about is that with the power that high, many people have to downshift to keep the truck moving uphill and towing, which is a given, but the noise is very excessive.

One thing that has impressed me about new cars these days is that they thankfully don't have problems like first years of yesteryear. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but so far my wife's Avenger is doing ok, though I've had other first years that haven't, hence the exceptions to the rule. Technology is helping, but still hasn't gotten us to the point where we would like to be. Now another question, 08 will definitely be the first year of this car and the kinks should be worked out by 09, but in 09 we will have new engines which would mean new problems correct?

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Oh yeah, I agree totally RLSH. Stock to stock is bragging rights for sure. Just look at the Viper/Corvette disscusions on which is faster. And they have almost identicle HP and tq. specs. But the Z-06 comes out on top when tested for acceleration. But on the street ( strip;)) its anybodies race. So goes the Challenger/Camaro/Mustang comparisons when they occur. But its nice to be the under dog on the street and bust cars that are supposed to be quicker. But for bragging rights for the Corporations, you have to compare stock for stock. And that is what it should be. After mods anything can happen and does. Their have been many a butt whippens occured, because someone said "stock"? Yeah stock! And they had an after market air cleaner or mufflers. So the race went down only to find out someones stock is anothers modified. I hope Chrysler wins that road test in the mag over the Camaro, but if they come up shy, that does'nt mean I will.:D

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Axle: I hear you loud and clear about the downshifting complaints. That causes the engine to use more fuel, plus it can't be helping the transmission to have to constantly shift back and forth. In all truth, it is probably more than just the exhaust, it could also be the intake and a few other factors. Generally an exhaust improvement causes the hp & tq peak to go higher as opposed to lower on the RPM level.

Yes, if the Challenger receives updated engines, like any other vehicle, it could have some first year problems. I would wait a year or two before getting the new engines to let them work out the bugs. Your right that newer car flaws are a lot less severe and less common than cars of yesteryear. Even new cars towards the end of their run can have problems when they are new. My family had a 1996 Olds Ciera (5 years after getting rid of it, I still have a special place in my heart just to hate it) and even though it was the last year of that model (thank God), the starter went out on it within the first month of ownership. The most recent problem we had with my parent's 02 Caravan was the windshield wipers got out of squence (they were running into each other). It was quite amusing to watch.

Lear4406: Even if the Challenger is the slowest in the pack (which I doubt), that will not stop me from getting one. I love the Challenger and only the Challenger out of its competition. I just want to see Chrysler succeed is all. Also it depends on which comparison you looked at between the Viper and Z06. They were pretty much neck-to-neck, but now they upped the power on the Viper so the horsepower wars continue on those models.

I'm not going to hold my breathe that the Challenger will win in the eyes of the magazines. They generally hate the cars I like. They also are inconsistent in their reasoning (sometimes they cite "bang for your buck;" other times they cite "the best interior;" other times they cite "driving characteristics;" but the rest of the time its the actual performance). I don't let magazine editors make decisions for me. It's my money, I'll choose for myself.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

I agree with that one. If it is the slower of the bunch, well I guess I will just have to fix that problem.

It certainly is the best looking of the bunch.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Amen to that! The Challenger is the only one that does anything for me in the category of looks. The engine can always be modified later, I just would like it to be faster at the stock level for bragging rights.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

From what I can tell it should flames the tires nicely.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

I've often thought if I were to lay down serious coin on a muscle car that was not Mopar, it'd have to be the 1970/71 Mustang Mach1 Fastback.....I always thought it just had the right look.......(if not a Mopar of course) so I'm curious if Ford will evolve the retro 68 to rekindle any interest once it lulls........that'd be the only way I could find the others even mildly interesting....

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Those Mach 1s were really neat looking. I would be tempted by one if I was in the market for a classic muscle car. The new ones just don't do anything for me is all.

RE: Big Three to shift into '08 models
 

Totally agree, I'm saying ford evolves the 68 into a modern interpretation of the Mach1.....might be a neat study.......put Chip Foos (sp?) on it right?