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Supercharging the new Challenger
Yes to start the pony war and do it like in the 70's, the new Dodge Challenger will need some sort of forced induction to keep up with the new GT500 Shelby Cobra Mustang. Unfortunatly, supercharging the Hemi may be difficult because of the high compression ratio. They also somehow need to reduce the weight to help with the horsepower/weight ratio. Dodge needs to work on increasing the horsepower to keep up with the Mustang as it is a slightly lighter car.
Jeremiah 29:11 |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
true, but the GT500 is a factory forced induction car, and isnt all that much faster than the estimated performance numbers of the challenger...we wont actually know until both of these cars hit the streets...
that being said, there are already companies developing forced induction setups for the SRT8 engines, and there are several available, both turbo and superchargers, available for the 5.7. With the steep compression, it wont allow you to run much boost with a blower, but even with boosting to, say, 6 psi, a 425hp engine is conceptually looking to gain 180ish bhp, minus parasitic loss. mind you, that is a very rough estimate, but even if we say that 6 psi will give it 100bhp, youre at 525 now, and youre taking a nice chunk out of the GT500s pride. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
I liked what you had to say. Unfortunately the horsepower rating of the Mustang keeps changing. I am not sure what it will wind up with. Here is a magaqine quote " In place of the standard Mustang GT's 300-hp, 4.6-liter V-8, the GT500 uses a 5.4-liter engine, supercharged for an estimated 450 hp and 450 lb-ft of torque, hooked up to a six-speed manual gearbox." I have also heard 475 horsepower also. At any rate, I look forward to what Dodge is going to do.
Jeremiah 29:11 |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
i have access to a certain car magazine prior to its release, and i obviously can not elaborate on what right now, but it says that the new GT500 is indeed 475 hp...as soon as i have the go ahead to post it, i will do so, as the challenger is involved.
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
The acceleration numbers seem to be similar between the two. In an earlier Motor Trend review that I was telling some people at DF about, they found that the 6.1L accutally produces around 467 hp. This might explain why it is so close. Offering the rumored 392 HEMI would be another nice option. As far as supercharging goes. They could lower the compression ratio a little to get the desired power. A 10.3 to 1 compression ratio is not too high in comparison to what GM is doing to the Z06 Corvette (11.0 to 1), but then again, Chrysler tends to care more about their engines actually staying together than GM does.
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
even with a 345hp 5.7 hemi, it would be nicely comptitive with the various current rwd performance cars, shy of the z06 and gt500
i also dont buy into 425hp and a 6 speed turning 13.00...:eek: |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
ORIGINAL: RLSH700 The acceleration numbers seem to be similar between the two. In an earlier Motor Trend review that I was telling some people at DF about, they found that the 6.1L accutally produces around 467 hp. This might explain why it is so close. Offering the rumored 392 HEMI would be another nice option. As far as supercharging goes. They could lower the compression ratio a little to get the desired power. A 10.3 to 1 compression ratio is not too high in comparison to what GM is doing to the Z06 Corvette (11.0 to 1), but then again, Chrysler tends to care more about their engines actually staying together than GM does. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
CR of the 5.7= 9.6 : 1
Cr of the 6.1= 10.3 : 1 |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
The Dodge Hemi Superchargers are ready and waiting.:D
http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?id=131 Up to 400rwhp on 6psi Kit (Will adapt to stock Vehicle) Up to 500rwhp on 8-10psi upgrade kit (Dyno Tuning is needed) |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
but 8-10 psi is running pretty steep on a stock 10.3 to 1 engine...
also, those HP numbers are whp, from what vehicle? different vehicles are more or less efficient as pertaining to rwhp. standard air pressure is 13.8, i believe. so every 13.8 psi added by forced induction will, in theory, double the horsepower, but this does not take into account any type of parasitic loss or basic drivetrain loss. so, if you use the assumption (which i reiterate that is not by any means perfect), that x=14psi, and y=psi produced by the blower without loss of any kind, and z=stock bhp, you would get this, solving for B (y/x+1)*z=B say youre making 5psi, on a 100hp motor, then you would have this: (5/14+1)*100=135.7bhp so, running 10psi on a 425hp motor, would give you this. (10/14+1)*425=728.57bhp now, figure that the car has a 25% drivetrain loss...so 728.57*.75=546.43whp, minus the power eaten by the supercharger (parasitic loss). i dont recall roughly how much power the blower itself eats, but i seem to recall that someone did a test with a C5 corvette with a 325hp LS1 (i think), and at 3psi, the supercharged car was making the same amount of RWHP as it did prior to the blower being fitted up. so, assuming that the first three psi of boost is making the hp needed to spin the supercharger, you would be running 7 pounds of "useful" boost, so [(7/14+1)*425]*.75=478rwhp. mind you, this is all very conceptual, and there are SO many variables that without an engine dyno, it is little more than an educated guess. i higher hp engine will make more boost with the first 3psi of boost that the corvette used to "turn" the blower...so it woudl take less effort by the motor, thus freeing up more WHP. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
hmmm....theirs is more correct...sorry...13.8 is what my buddy with a turbo car goes by, so i am guessing that it has something to do with his elevation...
but they have to know that for a living...i only am interested as a hobby...:) however, good link! |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
Just trying to share whatever will help us all.
;) |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
ORIGINAL: BadStratRT CR of the 5.7= 9.6 : 1 Cr of the 6.1= 10.3 : 1 |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
well, figure this...i know of someone who has an srt10 ram with a turbo kit on it. right after installation, it was making some 650Whp at very low levels of boost...i know that the viper 8.3L has a CR of 9.6:1, so i assume that the truck motor is the same, and he was running something like 6psi to make that 650Whp...i believe that he turned the boost up a bit when he installed an alcohol injection kit, and got up over 700Whp...he had a video on streetfire, but their site isnt working for me...[:@]
i seem to recall that with the alcohol injection, he was running 8psi, on a daily driven 9.6:1 engine, and didnt have any issues, so i would think that the 5.7 hemi would accept the same amount of boost, provided the same upgrades, but that is also assuming that the components of the 5.7 are of the same high quality as the 8.3L... |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
Sorry guys but I just don't get enthused about the supercharging deal. If the numbers are already close with the 6.1 in there then the way I see it is if they want a Gt 500 killer just drop in the 6.4 and be done with it. I'm just an all motor kinda thinker. The more add ons the more can go wrong. There's no replacement for displacement! Not trying to rain on your parade, continue on. I still find the subject fascinating.
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
I used to be an all-motor guy, in my way of thinking that is, but the fairly recent onslaught of import tuning has me thinking more and more about forced-induction. Done properly, it's very safe and you KNOW how effective it is, once you run up against one of these little ricers that has his sh*t together. They do it to make up for the lack of displacement and to put them closer to on par with us running V8's, but I say if they can do it, so can we. So much the better.
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
Man I hate to burst your bubble but I got a SC V6 that just plain eats V8 and they carry the displacement advantage..
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
what does your car run again?
while there are a ton of very fast forced induction imports, and i have been to Nopi events, and if the challenger is priced too much, i will have an evo, and i am WELL aware of what a well tuned small engine with forced induction is capable of, it can get very pricey, in a hurry, especially on a stock NA motor... however, my old V8 can hold its own on the quarter mile versus Most imports, and while i know that there is always someone faster, i love the sound and feel of my 450+hp 340 firing up...:) |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
13's before. I am having an extensive amount of work done right now that I am assured will allow me to break into the 12's once I get all the parts back on the car in one locations.:D
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
and what is your beater car? do you live somewhere with snow, as i am guessing that the solara doesnt see bad weather.
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
No beater. The wife and I ride share her SUV. The Solara is a once a month maybe, car show, or once in awhile race car only. Not sure what it's status will be when I get my Challenger. If the daughter does well in college I may make it a gift to her.
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
I was talking about production engines. I know what small displacement supercharged cars are capable of and it's amazing. I'm just saying from a production stand point DCX would just be better off putting the 6.4 in the Challenger for the simple solution to the GT 500. Aftermarket, yeah it's going to be a free for all so to speak if you can afford it!
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
ORIGINAL: Paladin06 Man I hate to burst your bubble but I got a SC V6 that just plain eats V8 and they carry the displacement advantage.. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
Sure you are always going to find V-6 engines faster than a V-8.
Everything else being equal......nothing compares to large displacment/forced induction engines. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
AMEN!!!!
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
ORIGINAL: deranged I was talking about production engines. I know what small displacement supercharged cars are capable of and it's amazing. I'm just saying from a production stand point DCX would just be better off putting the 6.4 in the Challenger for the simple solution to the GT 500. Aftermarket, yeah it's going to be a free for all so to speak if you can afford it! |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
ORIGINAL: RLSH700 ORIGINAL: deranged I was talking about production engines. I know what small displacement supercharged cars are capable of and it's amazing. I'm just saying from a production stand point DCX would just be better off putting the 6.4 in the Challenger for the simple solution to the GT 500. Aftermarket, yeah it's going to be a free for all so to speak if you can afford it! I was just thinking simple solution, and as far as VVT, I don't know they will be willing to go to that expense. Remember that WE will be paying for any new bells and whistles. Existing technology is less expensive and would still blow the 500 in the weeds. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
ORIGINAL: deranged ORIGINAL: RLSH700 ORIGINAL: deranged I was talking about production engines. I know what small displacement supercharged cars are capable of and it's amazing. I'm just saying from a production stand point DCX would just be better off putting the 6.4 in the Challenger for the simple solution to the GT 500. Aftermarket, yeah it's going to be a free for all so to speak if you can afford it! I was just thinking simple solution, and as far as VVT, I don't know they will be willing to go to that expense. Remember that WE will be paying for any new bells and whistles. Existing technology is less expensive and would still blow the 500 in the weeds. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
well, should my dreams of the new challenger become a reality, my first three mods, other than the exhaust and filter...
1. weight reduction 2. weight reduction 3. weight reduction |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
Yeah, a weight reduction would be good. What do you suggest to do to accomplish this? The only thing I can think of is cutting down on the trunk space and shortening the car some.
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
sorry..i mean like removing things to cut down on the weight of the car...first off, i hope that they have offer manual seats. i have power seats on the RT, and while mine work fine, its one more thing to go bad, and theyre heavy....i also hope that if the huge rims do come on the car, that they use a common bolt pattern like the 5x114.3 that is the same as the mirada and RT...that way, at the track, it will have some 15s on the rear, and big meat...:)
also.. weight reduction 101, as performed on my 2002 Stratus RT.. rear seat delete. passenger seat delete. spare tire delete. jack and factory tools delete. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
ORIGINAL: BadStratRT sorry..i mean like removing things to cut down on the weight of the car...first off, i hope that they have offer manual seats. i have power seats on the RT, and while mine work fine, its one more thing to go bad, and theyre heavy....i also hope that if the huge rims do come on the car, that they use a common bolt pattern like the 5x114.3 that is the same as the mirada and RT...that way, at the track, it will have some 15s on the rear, and big meat...:) also.. weight reduction 101, as performed on my 2002 Stratus RT.. rear seat delete. passenger seat delete. spare tire delete. jack and factory tools delete. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
i mean, if im driving from detroit to pittsburgh, then yes, i have a spare..but i dont even know why, because my sub box covers the entire spare, and its a nightmare to get the spare out..if i got a flat, AAA would be towing my car home...and we use rentals to go on long trips, except things like the nationals...anyways, half of the jacks that come with cars now are so damn cheap, that they wont lift the car if youre on any angle...they just buckle.
ironically, the last time that we ran the RT,i forgot to take the jack,tools (including some extras), the spare and the subs out... and i run expensive yokohama tires...if i get a flat, im going to be livid...and as for the blow out (knock on wood) ive only ever seen it happen to cheap tires... |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
ORIGINAL: BadStratRT i mean, if im driving from detroit to pittsburgh, then yes, i have a spare..but i dont even know why, because my sub box covers the entire spare, and its a nightmare to get the spare out..if i got a flat, AAA would be towing my car home...and we use rentals to go on long trips, except things like the nationals...anyways, half of the jacks that come with cars now are so damn cheap, that they wont lift the car if youre on any angle...they just buckle. ironically, the last time that we ran the RT,i forgot to take the jack,tools (including some extras), the spare and the subs out... and i run expensive yokohama tires...if i get a flat, im going to be livid...and as for the blow out (knock on wood) ive only ever seen it happen to cheap tires... |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
eh..i see where you are coming from, but as odd as it may seem, my ramcharger doesnt have a spare, amandas truck doesnt have a spare, and the RT spare is there sometimes, but its a pain in the arse to get to...i obviously know how to change a tire, but i dont think that i would bother, and the only time that i go anywhere that i dont have cell service would be driving to PA, or a racing event, in which case i would have the race tires for the stratus and a floor jack, or if we are just going to visit, i would have a rental...
and now that i think about it..i cant recall the last time that i straight didnt hav service...sometimes i go onto analog, but never 'no service"...but i see your point...other than racing events and driving home, the farthest that i have driven in probably a year was to go to the autoshow in downtown detroit...in the ramcharger, with no spare and a cooling issue...it leaks coolant, so tires are the least of my concern..lol |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
Well like I said I think it is irresponsible for a manufacturer not to offer one. It would be just like the situation that the White Star Line was in when they decided not to have enough life boats on the Titantic. If you don't want to carry your's, more power to you, but manufactures have a responsibility to offer that even if the tires are supposed to be unflatable just like the ship was unsinkable. I can see your point on not having in your car so then you can race. A valid point.
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RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
This is a little tid bit of info that I got off another board on the stang.
Ford does not want this car to be as mod friendly as the 03/04's were. They are tired of people demodding and going in for warranty work. So they designed the GT500 with great pistons, because that is something that can fail even when in stock form if they suck, but the rods are designed for only a fraction more power than what the car will make stock. So if you start upping the power to say (550 rwhp) things will start to go bad really quick. I am at about 600rw with my 04 cobra, and the total cost of all of my mods, and a new repaint that I just had done for show purposes, I still am not at the $40K sticker of the 07 GT500. + my cobra weighs about 230 lbs less. Another thing, The blower pulley is hugging down on the snout pretty close, so in order to swap your upper pulley you will either need to have the snout machined (not recommended because it will weaken the snout), have the snout replaced with some not yet available aftermarket version, or do a complete blower swap to a whipple or something else. The lower crank pulley swap to up the boost is also a no go due to clearance issues, and that it will take about 16 hours to do the swap and at the most you will only gain 1.5 lbs of boost. Also, there may be a check in the computer that is a stand alone system that will not be accessible for corruption or tampering. This will flag if the boost is ever raised higher than stock specs. So when you go in to the dealership and they plug in the Ford database will automatically void your warranty. And for any warranty work to be done the dealer must plug in, so there will be no "mod friendly dealerships" any more. Also, I was allowed to go through the car pretty well at a car show, and I think that it will be almost impossible to put a rear tire wider than a 295 on the back. Heck, I have 315's on my 04, and that is not yet the max that I can go. This has all been discussed on all of the mustang boards, I just figured I would pass this info on to you all. |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
Based on what we think we know about the car, what do you think is the 3 three things to improve performance that would be be low cost.
1. CAT back exhaust? 2. cold air induction? 3. program the computer? 4. Smaller pulleys? 5. Headers? Any thoughts? |
RE: Supercharging the new Challenger
If you were to super charged the SRT8, I think it would smoke the GT500, but price of the SRT8 and the super charger would surpass the GT500. so go CHEAP with nitrous! make sure you use it right
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