Jeremiah 29:11

My biggest concern as a result of the news in the Middle East is that gasoline prices could soar since the war is expected to get worse
especially if Syria starts getting attacked. This could cause cause the Dodge Challenger to be a short lived muscle car if prices go to $5.00/gallon.

I know these may sound negative but I think this could become reality.

Published: Friday July 14, 2006

KNIGHT RIDDER PHOTO/RANDY ELI GROTHE
Terry Box poses in Sanger, Texas, with his 2007 Shelby Mustang GT500 which is in high demand. The model may be one of the last muscle cars from American automakers.

Fade of American muscle cars challenges automakers

McCLATCHY TRIBUNE
TULSA, Okla. - Rushing through torrential rain on Interstate 44, the Shelby Mustang GT 500 splashes smoothly through road pools at speed.

This extreme 500-horsepower muscle car - the newest factory hot rod from Detroit - weathered that storm with ease and grace. But the GT 500 and other domestic muscle cars may face tougher tests ahead.

Although demand for the GT 500 is so high that it has pushed the car’s $42,000 base price to $50,000 or more at many dealerships, some industry observers think it could be the last 500-horsepower muscle car to come out of Detroit.

With gas prices high and baby-boomer buyers nearing retirement, the sun may be setting on traditional American muscle cars.

The genre was born more than 40 years ago and revived in the early ’90s with the Dodge Viper, whose V-10 engine now pumps out 520 horsepower.

Moreover, as General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. struggle financially, the money to develop these cars may be limited - particularly if the number of potential buyers is dwindling.

‘‘I think there is a built-in demographic for these cars now,’’ said Michael Jordan, chief of Automobile magazine’s Los Angeles bureau, who wrote a story on muscle cars for the July issue.

‘‘But it’s totally correct to say this is not a big boom market. I just don’t see more of the (500-horsepower cars) coming from Detroit.’’

Though no one is predicting the imminent demise of all muscle cars, their slow fade could pose a significant challenge for Detroit.

Although the cars primarily appeal to over-50 buyers, they are the Big Three’s main ‘‘halo’’ vehicles - attention-grabbers for the entire brand.

Without high-profile cars like the GT 500 - which should arrive at dealerships within 60 days - and the Z06 Corvette, the Dodge Viper and Charger SRT-8, ‘‘the domestics are left with nothing in the way of halo vehicles,’’ said Wes Brown, an analyst at industry consultant Iceology in Los Angeles.

‘‘I don’t know if we are at the peak or not,’’ he said. ‘‘I guess it will be determined by how well these cars are executed.’’

‘‘I don’t see the Europeans backing away from selling luxury cars with these massive V-8s and huge horsepower,’’ Brown said. ‘‘But that’s low volume.

‘‘If you want to keep your (sales) volumes high, there could be some resistance to bigger V-8s with high horsepower, particularly if gas stays high.’’

Muscle cars may evolve into smaller, lighter, more economical vehicles that appeal to younger buyers, but they won’t fade away altogether, predicted Jim Sanfillippo, executive vice president of industry consultant AMCI Inc. in Bloomfield Hills, Mich.

‘‘Do these cars have a bright future?’’ Sanfillippo said. ‘‘No. But they were always a niche. What you will see in the future is smaller-displacement V-8s, direct injection for power and efficiency, lighter materials. They may be different from today’s muscle cars, but they will still be muscle cars.’’

With the arrival of the GT 500, four domestic vehicles now have at least 500 horsepower - including the Corvette Z06, Dodge Viper, and Dodge Ram SRT-10.

Sales of those low-volume, ultra-high-performance vehicles are likely to slow first, industry officia

awsure

I don't really want to pursue the entire dynamics of oil (like the supply is artificially priced by an ILLEGAL cartel whose member countries produce religious fanatics KILL our people, or the fact that the cost of producing oil has risen marginally in the last five years...somewhere around $25-30 per gallon...and yet oil companies tell us they are "managing through a profit cycle" when they sell it to us for $70,$75, $78 per barrel. Don't get me started)

My thoughts on 500 HP cars are: they will never make that many of them because there are not a lot of folks that can (or will) pay the money. However, the small number of them on the road allows a manufacturer to release lower priced (lower HP & more mpg) models that the masses can and WILL buy. In fact, it's not an opinion...it's fact. The Mustang is a perfect example. Sprinkle a few high-end models on the country & send them to auto shows and the like and the rest of us will salivate for them. A few will buy and more will opt for a more affordable version.

I am not scared that we will see the end of the muscle car. I think power & style will always sell.

alamit

The higher gas prices don't seem to be slowing down suv/truck sales to much. Just might not sell as many hemi challenger's, actually the mileage for the hemi isn't that bad. I have a 2005 chevy monte carlo SS that averages 21.4 mpg. If I could get that much out of a hemi challenger I'd be happy.

RLSH700

It depends on how things go. If we decide to strangle the oil companies with price freezing, it will be the 70s all over again. If we decide to strangle the environmentalist that refuse to allow more refineries, drilling, allow fuel efficient technologies to come in such as Diesel engines, then the problem will be resolved. If we quit chasing ideas that don't work such as Ethanol and Hybrids, and go with fuels that actually work such as Butanol, then the problem could possibly improve.

I agree with the theory that if SUVs are still being sold with the terrible fuel mileage they get, then the Challenger will be successful. I think a powerful V6 option would be a good idea for the Challenger for this reason. It will appeal to those who want a faster car while being able to get the fuel economy they desire.

joeyr

I dont know if I fully agree with the ethanol and hybrid part. The problem is that none of this methods are powerful unless they have lobbysts polictians and celeberites on their side. For example corn ethanol is not as clean as sugar ethanol but has support and marketing from gm "go green" and BP(beyond petroleum) along with a strong support from lobbyists. And until hybrids can be build, sold, and repaired cheaper than they are know they will be have a stigma similar to that of diesels of former decades. So the best alternatives is to build cars that marry horsepower, and fuel economy, which may never happen espically with a congress whose GAS IS PAID FOR BY US WHILE ON CONGRESSIONAL BUSINESS! I find it hard to belive people who do not have to deal with something actually worry about it. (Hell even the some of the lobbyists and politicans in favor of alternative fuel sources do not drive hybrid or fuel efficent cars.)

RLSH700

Well what I'm refering to is the fact that Ethanol is not a solution do to the fact that ethanol doesn't put out as much energy as gasoline and as a result costs more to use than gasoline. The only reason why Ethanol is sometimes cheaper at the pump is due to tax incentives, which we pay for. Ethanol is more costly to transport because it can't be transfered via the pipeline like other fuel can be due to the water collection issue that Ethanol has.

My problem with Hybrids are they are death tramps. If the car is included in an accident, the outside of the car electricfy which traps the driver on the inside. Rescue crews have to be specially trained to rescue people from these cars. Even then the fact that they don't get anywhere near what they are rated at doesn't make it worth while. I have a friend who owns a V6 Escape and another friend who has a Hybrid Escape for work. I have asked both of them what their average fuel mileage is they both told me 24 mpg. They are over hyped.

The solutions I will support are Butanol, Diesel and Bio-Diesel, and increasing the production and refining capacity of oil. Here is the previous discussion we had about Butanol incase your interested. https://dodgechallenger.com/forums/m_3854/tm.htm

Don't get me started about the politicans who "support" alternative fuels. A drunken, slime-ball senator who will remain nameless who is an environmentalist and "supports" alternative fuel sources seemed perfectly happy about windmill power until it would cost him his favorite yachting spot![:@]

The solution for the mean time is DCX and Ford need to start making their transmissions with taller gearing. That would improve things a lot. Tall gearing is how GM gets the amazing mileage they get. That and VVT systems. They need to abandon those stupid CVTs, they don't save any gas, they guzzle it even more than normal automatics.

So what do you think about that?

joeyr

RLSH700, I do agree that ethanol and hybrids are not going to save us from high gas prices but I do feel that it can be a start to be more responsible and aware of our fuel consumption. There are many to blame for gas prices: the EPA for giving misleading high MPG numbers because of their non realistic testing standards, car companies (especially American) for taking the easy way out and not making cars that weren’t more environmentally friendly. The government for being themselves (an opportunistic pack of coyotes that only seem to pull together when facing a national tragedy), gas companies for being bedfellows with government officials, and most importantly ourselves. We have become more industrialized as a species and also more wasteful. How can a small family justify an escalade ESV? How many celebrities can we name that have warehouses full of cars? how many different racing events are held in america annually? We have more cars than people in America and wonder why gas prices are so high. Also I like your argument about butanol and diesel, in fact there was an article in Motor trend recently about turning trash (cars, rotten food, etc) into oil. Sadly, I think it will take even higher gas prices before a real solution is employed. Also I like your argument about cvt and vvt trannies. The mini cooper (one of my favorite cars and perhaps my plan B to a challenger if it is unaffordable) has a cvt (I think) but I am not as familiar with vvt. But there is still hope for us, look even our beloved dodge, a company not known for fuel efficiency is employing MDS in its 5.7 hemi, investing in smart cars, and making a diesel hybrid Durango. Sorry for waiting so long to respond and thanks for your insight, especially about the hybrids electrical problems during accidents.

1 Bad Mirada

we work from home...we put about 1000 miles on our vehicles a year, combined. gas could be 100 bucks a gallon, and i would still buy the challenger if it is reasonably priced....also, her grandfather took his 300C on a trip a while back and got something like 25mpg...which is almost as good as the stratus, but it will also run in the 13s...

RLSH700

That's okay I haven't been here very often lately so don't worry. I'll try to explain some of these things. First of all, I agree with your analysis on who is to blame for the high prices for the most part, but I'd like to add another group to the list. I also blame the environmentalist community and here is why. The Liberty CDR, VW Diesels are going to be dropped for 07 because they can't pass the EPA standards. Granted we will have the Grand Cherokee model will replace it; however, it gets 3 mpg lower in both city/highway despite only being .2 liters larger.

Secondly, more environmentally friendly doesn't equal better fuel mileage. A car with a higher compression ratio gets higher fuel economy and produces more emissions as well. Back in the 70s, the car companies had to increase the displacement and lower the compression ratio on cars to get better emissions but the fuel economy got worse. The catalytic converters hurt the fuel economy as well. There are very few things that improve both a once, one is MDS and VVT systems.

Thirdly, a VVT system is a system on an engine. This article should explain the just of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing (sorry this source isn't the best but it was the easiest to find)

Fourth, my argument against Ethanol and Hybrids is based on my personal belief that Ethanol and Hybrids are nothing but a distraction from real answers because they don't really solve the problem.

Fifth, I realize we do consume quite a bit more than we maybe should, but the thing that is really driving the prices up is that China and India are getting more cars and consuming more fuel as a result. Yes the Big Three have made some of the biggest fuel guzzlers; however, they have been more dedicated to coming up with alternative fuels than the Japanese have been. They made electric cars, FFV vehicles, DCX even tried to make a Hybrid Intrepid but it failed due to the extreme expense. Here is an article about that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Intrepid_ESX

I read that article in Motor Trend, it was interesting. I'm perfectly fine with that rout

Jeremiah 29:11

I bought my gasoline today for $2.65 and it looks like it is going down further.


Gas may be headed back near $2


Industry analyst sees prices between $2 and $2.50 by Thanksgiving.
August 30 2006: 6:26 PM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The recent drop in prices at the pump could pick up steam, driving gasoline sharply lower in coming months.

"I'd say $2 to $2.50," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service. "Once you get past Sept. 15, it's really a downhill game."

Kloza said so far the average cost of a gallon of gas peaked this year at $3.036 on Aug. 10 and has come down largely thanks to diminishing hurricane fears.

"There's just nothing happening in the tropics, and the market had priced in all sorts of calamities," he said.

The motorist organization AAA reported a nationwide average of $2.82 Tuesday, the lowest since April 20.

Online gasoline price survey site Gasbuddy.com shows Wednesday's national average at $2.80.

Another analyst pointed to a 60-cent drop in wholesale and spot prices the past few weeks, noting consumers should see a similar drop in retail prices in the coming few weeks as the decline works its way through the market.

The drop in wholesale and spot prices would translate to retail gasoline prices of around $2.50 to $2.60 a gallon, analysts said.

"The levels that were in place were never justified to begin with," said Mark Gilman, an analyst with The Benchmark Co. "This is a bit of a return to reality."

Gilman said retail gasoline prices of around $2 a gallon by Thanksgiving were certainly possible, although not likely.

He said crude prices would need to drop by about $20 a barrel to have that effect, and he just didn't see any major catalyst that would cause such a decline over the next three months.

Kloza said several circumstances are behind the recent gasoline price declines: the end of the summer driving season, which reduces consumer demand for gasoline, as well as the end of seasonal federal requirements on gas that make the cost of importing and refining it cheaper.

The price of gasoline's main component, crude oil, has also been falling in recent days.

Crude oil, accounting for about half the price of gasoline, closed below $70 a barrel Tuesday for the first time since June 20.

Oil fell further Wednesday after a government report indicated surprising growth in oil and gasoline inventories. (Full story).

--------------------------------------------