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"Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

Old 06-21-2006, 07:29 PM
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Default "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...l_x.htm?csp=34
http://www.butanol.com/

TechmanBD was the one to bring our attention to this over at DF and I thought those who are only members here would enjoy to read and have discussions about this as well.

I personally think it sounds great so far. I just want to see if it causes any damage to the engines or if it extends the life like Ethanol does. What do you guys think?
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Old 06-21-2006, 11:19 PM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

I imagine it is about the same. From what I read it has 4 carbon atoms instead of 2 like ethanol. But from the reading, what will be nice with this, is you can run it in any car and not worry about the fuel system getting damaged like the ethanol would on non flex fuel cars. I will be reading more about it as more data comes out.
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Old 06-21-2006, 11:30 PM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

Keep me posted on that TechmanBD. That sounds like the first alternative fuel source that doesn't have any draw backs. Thanks for informing us in the first place back at DF. Would the 2 additional carbon atoms cause problems with the environmental regulations and make the environmentalist community fight against it? You know I'm not a fan of that community so I don't know what they have objections on because I ignore them.
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:07 AM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

no, it is still made from corn or sugar or other vegitation. It is still biodegradable.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:50 PM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF


ORIGINAL: TechmanBD

no, it is still made from corn or sugar or other vegitation. It is still biodegradable.
Okay, but the thing I am talking about is the emissions. Will it pass the emissions tests (aftering being burned in the engine)? One of the things I've been told is they don't like carbon emissions. I admit I haven't done much studying on this and probably should do more.
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:22 PM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

As an alternative fuel produced from biomass, EEI-produced butanol will be based on “green” carbon, and will thereby reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Also when burned, it produces no Sox or Nox, thereby yielding additional significant environmental benefit. Of course the same can be said for ethanol produced from biomass
From that site. I am not a chemist, but what I think i read somehwere is since this carbon came from plants, it can be reabsorbed by the plant and use as the food source.
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:24 PM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

another quote from the site

In ten states Butanol reduced Hydrocarbons by 95%, Carbon monoxide to 0.01%, Oxides of Nitrogen by 37%
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:50 PM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

Okay then they like the fuel. GOOD! Finally a solution that group and myself can agree on, (and what do you know H#!! didn't freeze over in the process!)!
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:24 PM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

Is this the same stuff?

Super ethanol is on its way
The next generation of this biomass fuel could be cheaper, more plentiful and arriving sooner than you think
.
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
June 22, 2006: 5:30 PM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) –Cellulosic ethanol, the biofuel that differs from corn-based ethanol in that it can be made from pretty much any organic matter, has made an impression among people who matter.

Alan Greenspan, the revered former chairman of the Federal Reserve with a big distaste for irrational exuberance, recently sang its praises before a Congressional hearing on energy security. Greenspan said cellulosic ethanol is the only alternative energy source that could be produced in enough volume to make a dent in gas usage.

"You'll get an awful lot of investments [into this technology] coming in, especially if the numbers make sense, which I think they do," he said.

And last month Goldman Sachs (Charts), the world's largest investment bank, poured $27 million into Iogen, a Canadian-based biotech specializing in ethanol made from cellulose.

It used to be thought that this fuel, which some argue has the potential to replace more than two thirds of all gasoline used in the U.S., was decades away from commercial viability.

But high gas prices, a touch of technical innovation, and a healthy dose of capital may move that date up.

"There are a lot of people who think the technology is there," and could be competitive even if oil prices return to $30 a barrel, said Greg Bohannon, a managing partner at Greenrock Capital, a California-based private equity fund that focuses on renewable energy. "Why would Goldman Sachs invest in a company that's not going to be commercially viable for 10 years?"

Chances are, they didn't.

Beyond corn
Most ethanol currently produced in the U.S. is made from corn kernels.

Its benefits have been well documented in the press, especially since gasoline prices reacheda record average of $3.06 a gallon last September, and haven't fallen much since.

Ethanol is clean burning. It's renewable. And it costs about a dollar a gallon to produce. Existing cars can run on 10 percent ethanol with no modifications, and they'd need only about $100 worth of tinkering to be 85 percent ethanol powered. And, perhaps most importantly, it's domestically produced.

But there are a few major problems with corn-based ethanol.

First, it takes a lot of energy to make it. According to the Department of Energy, most studies put the ratio as low as 1:1.4 - meaning that for every one unit of energy spent, only 1.4 units of ethanol energy are created. Indeed, there are some camps who believe producing corn-based ethanol actually results in a net loss of energy.

Second, an expensive infrastructure would need to be built if people started using mostly ethanol in their vehicles, since ethanol is water soluble and the existing pipelines and filling station equipment for gasoline are not completely water tight.

Third, there's not enough corn available. John Ashworth, a biomass expert at the Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, said corn could only supply about 12 to 18 billion gallons of ethanol a year, or about 10 percent of the nation's 140 billion gallon-a-year gasoline habit.

After that, ethanol would start to run up the price of corn, raising the cost of everything from eggs to Coca Cola. Of course the same problem would emerge with ethanol made with sugarcane or soy or any other food crop.

Wood chips to the rescue
Cellulosic ethanol has all the advantages of corn-based ethanol - there is no difference in the ethanol, only in the way it's produced.

But unlike corn-based ethanol, cellulosic ethanol can be made from a variety of things that might otherwise be considered waste – sewage sludge, switchgrass, plant stalks, trees, even coal – virtuall
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:17 PM
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Default RE: "Butanol, the new fuel" discussion from DF

I believe that is normal ethanol, just made in a more effective way. My dad (who is knows people on the inside of this research) has been mentioning this for a while. The problem with Ethanol is that it is not practical beyond 10% with the way cars are. 85% gets way worse fuel mileage than it does with gas because the compression is too low to make it practical. It can't be sent in pipelines like gas (which brings up the price). I like Ethanol in 10% and use it religiously, but it isn't the solution no matter how bad I would like it to be (I have farmers in the family). This Butanol sounds like an actual solution. I just what to she how it effects the cars engines.
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