1 Bad Mirada

the whole reason for them doing away with the f bodies was because they were robbing sales from the vette, as it was the same car, a bit heavier, but a better deal for someone who wanted to go fast. until they put more hp into the LS7 found in the corvette, they are NEVER going to offer an engine in a $40,000 camaro which will come close to competing stock with the 70,000 Z06...NEVER.

now, should Gm bump the HP of the Z06 up when dodge releases the 8.4L ZC based viper, we may see a Ls7 based camaro or gto, but i dont think that they will put it at 505hp.

RLSH700

First of all, there were engines the Corvette had that the Camaro and Firebird never got such as the 32valve version of the 5.7L used in the ZR-1. Secondly, the output was consistently lower on the F-body versions. Since you used the LS1 as an example, lets look at the 1998 models. The Corvette LS1 was producing 345hp & 350ft-lbs of tq vs. the F-body twins offered 305hp & 335ft-lbs of tq on the ower models and 320hp & 345ft-lbs of tq on the Ram-Air models. They did offer the same engine just a lower output version. If they offer the LS7, then it will probably be detuned.

Actually it is more like this between the F-body twins

Camaro vs. Firebird

Z28 = Formula

SS = Trans Am WS6 package

nothing = Firehawk

Take a look at the output that the Firehawk limited production models produced vs. the Camaro SS. You can't compare them. The Firehawk consistently produces more hp and tq. The SS models produced the hp and tq that the WS6 package Trans Ams produced. For example, a 2000 Camaro Z28 SS produced 320 hp & 345 ft-lbs of tq, whereas the 2000 Pontiac Firebird Firehawk produced 335 hp & 350 ft-lbs of tq.

Yeah I know your just quoting Lutz. The success or lack thereof that GM has had since he has been there represents why he was fired from Chrysler group operations. I think the GTO's days are over. What I mean by this is I don't think there is really a market for this kind of market segment (mid/full-sized luxury sport coupe without a luxury name plate). I'm not saying it won't be a nice car, I'm just saying I don't think people want those anymore. They seem more interested in compact performance coupes (pony cars and Japanese offerings).

RLSH700

Yeah this sound accurate. If they offer the LS7, it will probably produce more around what the GT500 is supposed to produce.

1 Bad Mirada

i thought that the GT500 is 475? or something like that? Im not even sure that GM would put that into an SS Camaro, because what is that 30 hp cut by, a minor detune? a different exhaust system and intake plenum? it would be too easy to make up, and you would have sales lost/corvette owners crying..again.

RLSH700

Well they have done it in the past (1998 Camaro SS produced 320hp vs. Corvette produced 345= 20 hp difference). They also might increase the LS7 hp and tq with VVT for the Corvette only. They are starting to put that in a lot of their V8 engine line-ups. This is why I originally suggested that the Camaro's top engine be the 6.0L.

1 Bad Mirada

that is true about the 98 SS versus the vette, but in 98, which was the first year of the LS1 in the camaro, they dynoed almost the same numbers... that was what created the fuss...

B00SS

Absolutely true. There were different versions of the engine. But both cars shared the basic engine.

Again correct. I certainly did not say the engines were putting out the same horsepower. Corvette buyers would have never gone for that. Most considered them to close as it was.


I guess the reason I disagree with this is that the Trans AM, even with the WS6 option, was a completely in house GM offering. The Camaro Z28 was also GM in house. But both the Firehawk and the SS were sent to SLP for final upgrades. They were both completed with parts and accessories that were not available at the GM plant. If the Camaro didn't have an exact match up, it would be with the Formula. The Formula, being the no frills version of the Firebird with a V8.

Be certain you are comparing the same years here. The Firehawk and the SS produced the same power in a given year according to SLP. Ahhhh but that, my friend, is why quarter mile tracks were built.

RLSH700

Okay, I was not aware of this. Thanks for correcting me on that.

RLSH700

Okay, I must say different sources give different numbers for different years which is starting to confuse me a little. I was using a book based on the history of the Firebird during spring break, now I'm using Wikipedia since it is easier. This is what it has to say about the Firebird:

"The LS1 Firebirds, despite their poor sales, were among the fastest ever produced. They featured an all aluminum 5.7L V8 designated the LS1, with 305hp (310 after 2000), or 320hp (325 after 2000) for the Ram Air version. The rare Firehawk model made by SLP and sold through Pontiac dealerships had 330hp (345 after 2000). "

Here is what they had on the Camaro:

"The 2001 Z28 and SS models received the intake manifold from the LS6 (the engine used in the fifth-generation Corvette Z06.) Accordingly, the horsepower rating was increased to 310 for the Z28 and 325 for the SS, although both models remained underrated."

I tried to get this as close as possible but this source is not very good on offering the same information format for each car. It does prove my point though. The SS produces the same hp & torque as the Trans Am WS6 package, whereas the Firehawk numbers claim 345 hp which puts them ahead. You're right that they are both made by SLP, but the Firehawk is still shown to be more powerful.

Another thing is based on what I remember from a 1998 issue of Motor Trend where they compared a Camaro Z28 vs. Mustang Cobra vs. Firebird Formula, they found a 0-60 acceleration times of 5.2 (Camaro) vs. 5.3 (Firebird) despite having the same hp, tq, and transmission. I regret I don't remember the quater mile times, but it is obvious tha