YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN

by: George Carlin

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Amen!

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

"I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God when and where they want to. "

"and I'm proud that "God" is written on my money."

I was ok with everything written except that. Don't those 2 comments cancel each other out? So we have religious freedom as long as we're Christian? That seems to be the view too many Americans have.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Wait a second??? That is supposed to be by George Carlin??? Yeah Right!!!!

*Edit:

That was bugging me so much I had to find out how it ended up with his name on it. http://www.georgecarlin.com/home/dontblame.html

Apparently people are trying to put words in his mouth or something which I think is disgusting.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Personally I dont view "As we God we trust" as the God in Christanity, or Judaism, or Isalm. But for many people God is our money, and he is one that is worshipped everyday.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

I believe the money has "In God We Trust". If it were soley Christian it would say " In Jesus We Trust". I am Christian and I see it as it states. But if I were Jewish or Muslim I would believe it pertained to my God. If I were of some other belief or lack there of, I would respect the country in which I was in. This is Carlins words or not so take it for what it is worth. As far as too many Americans having a Christian leaning. We are a Society based on Judeo Christian beliefs and more people profess a Christian belief in the USA. If you were in another Country, say Iran.... what Religious belief do you think it would follow. We should enjoy the freedom we have and be glad our history has the people in it that it does. We were shaped by the characters of our past, good, bad or indifferent. We got to where we are by all these folks. I for one have seen the changes as we go more towards a progressive life style. I can't say I like it, but I will deal with it.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

lear4406......I agree with you and will add one thing.

The founding fathers were not perfect but were bible believing Christians and as such when this nation was formed it was also blessed
and continues to be blessed to this day. Yes there is a bible belt in this country: The "Bible Belt" is a slang term used for a geographical
region in the South and the midsection of the United States -- areas that host large groups of fundamentalist Christians.

This is why this is the most powerful nation in the world. Many nations have fallen because they
turned away from God such as Russia.

If this country ever turns its back on God, this country will go down the proverbial toilet. Things like legalizing abortion, taking prayer out of schools,
removing the 10 commandments off of government property(like court houses), supporting homosexuality and gay marriages, removing references to God in our books,
supporting pornography.

All of these, are things that God strictly forbids or things that make you turn away from God.

Guys and gals these are things that God tells us, not just my opinion based on some ideaology. In other words, I didn't make this up.

If you want to share your opinion, please fell free to do so but have the bible be supportive of it. Otherwise, your opinion is without any truth to it.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

"If this country ever turns its back on God, this country will go down the proverbial toilet. Things like legalizing abortion, taking prayer out of schools,
removing the 10 commandments off of government property(like court houses), supporting homosexuality and gay marriages, removing references to God in our books, supporting pornography."

I can't say I have a firm stance on abortion, it isn't something I've had experience with and is obviously a very complex issue. I'll leave the decision making up to other people on that one (for now anyway). What do you mean take prayer out of schools? Like group praying or something? As far as I know an individual has every right to pray in a public school but there is no official "prayer hour" or something. I'm confused on this part. I don't see homosexuality as something to "support". You either are or you aren't and I'm not in any position to tell someone what gender they're attracted too. I'm not sure about the reference to taking God out of books. What books exactly? The concept of a god obviously has had a huge impact on history so I don't see any reason why it should not be referenced.

"If you want to share your opinion, please fell free to do so but have the bible be supportive of it. Otherwise, your opinion is without any truth to it."

We need not believe in any god to have morals. I don't appreciate being told my opinion has no merit unless it's backed by the bible.

Thanks for reading what I have to say.

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"I can't say I have a firm stance on abortion, it isn't something I've had experience with and is obviously a very complex issue. I'll leave the decision making up to other people on that one (for now anyway). "

Well, you should have an opinion since it is called murder.
People will say that it is their own body, they can do with it what they want. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


What do you mean take prayer out of schools? Like group praying or something? As far as I know an individual has every right to pray in a public school but there is no official "prayer hour" or something.

I am guessing but you must be young as back in the 50's, 60's and 70's there used to be prayers in school, just like there is a Pledge of Allegiance. Now most schools have a quiet time without the prayer.


I'm confused on this part. I don't see homosexuality as something to "support". You either are or you aren't and I'm not in any position to tell someone what gender they're attracted too.

Let me help you with the confusion. There are school districts around the country that allowing "alternative lifestyles" to be taught to children in elementary school.
As a parent, I have a strong voice on what moralities/value system I want taught to my children and that is not one of them.
There are companies that are promoting homosexuals so they are seen as not being discriminating agains homosexuals and not because they are better employees
as it looks good on their point card.

Romans 1:18,26

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of human beings who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.



I'm not sure about the reference to taking God out of books. What books exactly? The concept of a god obviously has had a huge impact on history so I don't see any reason why it should not be referenced.

What I mean by books are things like the references to God off of money, out of the Pledge of Allegiance, the court room oath, etc..

Just so we know where I stand, there is no such thing as the concept of a god..........there is God.......the one and only.

We need not believe in any god to have morals. I don't appreciate being told my opinion has no merit unless it's backed by the bible.
[b]
Okay, so what are we to use a reference plane (like a carpenters leveler or a compass for direction)for our truth. There are certain portions of our population that their morals tell them that we are infidels and should be destroyed so does that make it right. That is the morals they were raised with. So which one is worse, a pedophile, a rapist, a murder? In our eyes, we would think the murderer is worse because in our society he will probably be put to death. In God's eyes they are a sin and a stain. There is a difference between societies truth and God's truth.

God's truth comes from the bible.

By the way, I did not say you did not have a morals. What I said, was your opinion may be without truth.

God speaks to us in several different ways:

1. The Bible or scripture

2. Sermon

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

"I am guessing but you must be young as back in the 50's, 60's and 70's there used to be prayers in school, just like there is a Pledge of Allegiance. Now most schools have a quiet time without the prayer."

Yes. Since that time the prayer has been done away with. Some schools may in fact have a quiet time without prayer and I believe they do, however I did not attend one of these schools. I don't really have a problem with a "quiet time" since it doesn't hurt anyone or push any sort of religious agenda.

Let me help you with the confusion. There are shcol districts around the country that allowing "alternative lifestyles" to be taught to children in elementary school. As a parent, I have a strong voice on what moralities/value system I want taught to my children and that is not one of them.
There are companies that are promoting homosexuals so they are seen as not being discriminating agains homosexuals and not because they are better employees
as it looks good on their point card.

I recall very little on "alternative lifestyles" being taught when I was in elementary or junior high school. You had the lesson or story here or there about kids that live with an aunt or an uncle instead of a mom or dad. I can definitely believe that they're now explaining that some children do in fact have two mothers or two fathers. What part of this is the problem? As far as I can tell nobody is telling your child to become a homosexual, only to be aware that other children may have parents who are in fact homosexual. It is a fact that this is a situation that exists in our society. Should the child who happens to have 2 male parents be ignored over the child who lives with an aunt or an uncle, or a grandfather and grandmother? The child didn't choose who his/her parents were, and deserves the respect of the other kids as much as the one who didn't choose to have his parents killed in a car accident. How is this to be explained to kids? What happens when your child is in a class with "timmy who has 2 mothers" and the other kids make fun of him? Should schools ignore this or explain it?

As for the issue with companies promoting homosexuals to look good, can this not be said of any minority? The same is done with African-Americans, Indians, Asians, etc. This is an issue that has to be taken up with these companies. There are obviously homosexuals who are taking advantage of this, but there are other minorities taking advantage of it as well. This is an issue that can not be blamed on anyone specifically. The government gives incentives to companies, the companies take advantage of them. The root of this entire problem is the fact that we as a society can not accept people as equals. Instead we promote them to higher paying jobs so that we look like we accept them. If we ignored race and sexual preference entirely, pretended it was invisible, then these "point cards" would dissapear.

If this country ever turns its back on God, this country will go down the proverbial toilet. Things like legalizing abortion, taking prayer out of schools,
removing the 10 commandments off of government property(like court houses), supporting homosexuality and gay marriages, removing references to God in our books, supporting pornography.

So in the end I'm still not understanding how the country will go down the toilet as you say, if these things were to happen. Perhaps god would not like it if everyone suddenly accepted homosexuality, but how would that hurt our country? What negative effect would accepting a group of people have? If anything accepting homosexuals the way they are would pave the way towards accepting everyone else, and doing away with racism altogether. Prayer is already out of schools and I've yet to see any negative effect of that. Also, what are the consequences of removing "God" from money? Or from inscriptions on the sides of buildings? Does removing his name cause him to stop existing?

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Just a quick thought, I'm a child of the 60's and I have tried but I can't recall the killing in school as much as I see it today. The violence that is shown across the TVs in our homes about the schools and the sexual immorality taking place in the classroom. These are just 2 examples of the changes that have occured since GOD has been expelled from the public school system. I have long expected it, because my father taught us from the Bible that these things would occure and might happen in our lifetime. I'm so sorry to see these things happen in my 2 sons lifetime. But they have been prepared also.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Damn, didn't mean to make this into a religious debate.

As for the schools, There are more reasons why it is bad there. One I can think of, is no more discipline. The schools tell the students they have rights and take it too far. So in turn, the students think they can do whatever they want.

My wife and I are not going to have kids, and really don't want to in this day and age. Especially with the Gov't telling us we can't discipline our kids. Not even spankings? I am one that believes in spankings. On the rear, or a slap on the hand. Obviously there are the ones that go to far. This is how I was raised and I came out fine, as well as my other siblings. There is also an age when to stop. When they are young, they don't understand restriction, or taking away toys. So a slap on the rear lets them no that what they did was bad. Then when they get to an age where they understand the restriction and taking away of privledges, then the spanking stops.

Anyways, that is my tak,e and you can take it or leave it.

I am not a religious person, but don't see why they have to take "GOD" off of things so there is political correctness because an atheist is offended. I know atheists, and they think it is crazy that people get all offended because of that. They have gone too far with it. WHat ever happened to sticks and stones. Big f'n deal. If this keeps up, everyone will be zombies so to speak. No fun in life walk around with our mouths shut, in a daze. [X(]:eek:

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Ugh... well O.K. We really can't debate. I can debate with another Christian on the grounds that the Holy Bible is the undisputed word of GOD. But with anyone else there would be no standard to guide the debate. Not a slam at all on anyone else, just a fact that I live by. It would just turn into a personal attack and I like you guys too much to let that happen. No good would come from it. I hate it that your not having kids, they are a great experience. But I know what you mean about this day and age. Have a nice day man.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

"Just a quick thought, I'm a child of the 60's and I have tried but I can't recall the killing in school as much as I see it today. The violence that is shown across the TVs in our homes about the schools and the sexual immorality taking place in the classroom. These are just 2 examples of the changes that have occured since GOD has been expelled from the public school system."

I see that these things have been happened since god has been removed from school, but there is no way to connect the two things. In fact we still have very little explanation as to why violence is spreading so rapidly in our country. If you take a look at many European countries, religion is much less prominent, and so is violence. There is simply no connection between the removal of religion and an increase in violence. The idea that god is the only viable option for living a peaceful life is just too out there for me.

"I am not a religious person, but don't see why they have to take "GOD" off of things so there is political correctness because an atheist is offended. I know atheists, and they think it is crazy that people get all offended because of that. They have gone too far with it."

I'm in the middle here. The pledge for example is a piece of our history and taking god out of it would be like trying to erase history. Which is just as rediculous as changing history books to make no mention of our other mistakes. I don't think we should go around removing the word god from things as much as we should avoid doing it in the future. Truthfully it doesn't bother me personally, but what about the people coming into this country with different beliefs? I can see how they would be bothered by it.

"Ugh... well O.K. We really can't debate. I can debate with another Christian on the grounds that the Holy Bible is the undisputed word of GOD. But with anyone else there would be no standard to guide the debate."

This is the problem I think. This is a country of many different cultures and beliefs, and we can't lock ourselves out from other people because they don't read the bible, or believe in god. In an age where there are scientific breakthroughs every day that conflict with religious beliefs, how will we ever come to an understanding if we simply ignore other peoples' opinions and say that our belief is the only correct one? The fact is there is no standard guide on which to debate on, which is why so many people simply avoid the issue and we end up stuck. . . 50% on one side and 50% on the other. You can't make decisions in a democracy with a 50/50 split.

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This is not a good arguement at all... For instance Iran, they are very religious and the "radical islams" have their religion twisted to committing suicide will get you in the gates of heaven. Saying they want every American and every Jewish person dead. Preaching death to america on friday nights as if it were a high school football rally.

Although i do agree that religion should not have been taken out of schools.. Yea maybe as adults they make smarter more reasonable choices, as a kid you can pick up on dumb things and be persuaded easier, so why not persuade them in the right direction? By not having it there the average kids likely ness to being persuaded into negative things are higher.

Older Roman society you couldnt walk into any building or house without having the words of the bible on the door or walkway.. Because of that they lived in a good society..

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Just so you know, all of these things have already happened.
Legalizing abortion - Supreme Court; Roe v. Wade
Taking prayer out of schools - most kids don't even know the Pledge of Allegiance now. Why? Because someone objected to the phrase "under God"...
Removing the 10 Commandments from Government facilities - The ACLU has sued (and won) over this numerous times (more suits are still pending).
Supporting/recognizing gay/homosexual unions - How many states have passed legislation already, with more to "fall in line"? Ever heard of "Queer eye for the straight guy"? How about "Gay, straight, or taken"?
Removing references to God in books - School districts and public libraries have been weeding out books that are "religiously insensitive" for MANY years now.........reminds me of the Nazi's.
Supporting pornography - not only does the government do little to discourage it, they're considering taxing it as a source of revenue (link). Would you call that support?

This country HAS turned it's back on God time after time, and that's why we're becoming the "Modern Day Babylon" that God will destroy when he's seen enough adultery, bearing false witness, killing, coveting, dishonor, theft, and immorality. He must be a very patient God...... he's endured watching more than I could of my children.
This country was great at one time, but it's people's "lukewarm" attitudes and tolerance of evil are destroying the very foundation it was created on.
God has repeatedly been invited to leave our lives here in America - a country originally founded on Christian strength, beliefs and faith. A country where we swear to the truth of our court testimony, and the morality and effectiveness of our politicians on a Bible, with the statement "So help me, God". A country where our currency reads "In God We Trust". A country where holidays that celebrated God's son's birth and resurrection have been bastardized by commercialism and political correctness. A country where no one is responsible for thier own actions, but rather blames thier ills and decisions on anything other than themselves.
We make heroes and legends of the most promiscuous, immoral, unethical and evil people, put them in the public eye and idolize them. People gain fame and fortune from violating every one of the commandments. Each day that we turn a blind eye and ignore these things, we go out of our way to spit in the face of the same God that the founding fathers prayed to for help in establishing this country.
We look at religious fundamentalists in other countries as "extremists" and can't understand thier devout faith.....because we have so little ourselves.

Yet when a tragedy (like terrorist attacks, earthquakes or hurricaines) occurs, the very people in America that asked God to leave our daily lives want to know why God let it happen and didn't prevent it.
You invited him to leave - why do you ask where he is now?
Farmiliarity breeds contempt. We've always been a "land of plenty" and won't appreciate that until it's all been stripped away from us.

For the record, I'm a Christian and have been ALL of my life. I didn't "find God" (I didn't know he was lost in the first place) after a tumultuous period in my life (MOST - not ALL, but most - of the most fervent "preachers" I've met have initiated thier faith in that way). I spent the majority of my youth as an active member

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Its the damn ACLU and the athiests which make up like somewhere around 2-11 percent of the entire United States of America.. Why dont the around 80 some percent of Christians do somthing about it instead of letting this country have its rights taken away that founded this country and is what made freedom.. Im sure Thomas Jefferson would be irate. All i got to say is United we stand divided we fall.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

I meant that we can't have a religious debate, as in we turned this into a religious debate. I can debate schools and politics. Many other facets of our everyday life. A religious debate is not possible, it will always end in a personal attack no matter how hard you try not too. I am guided by the Holy Bible and many others by other religions or non belief. I am glad they have that choice. As a Christian I offer it with no strings attached. But if you are not careful, other religions are not so generous. Its their way or the highway. And by highway I mean it ain't too good. Most Christians live as Jesus taught, live and let live. If we must have a compass, at least with Christians you are not forced to believe as we do. You can live as you see fit. My GOD is big enough to handle his own affairs. Thanks for the conversation guys and I hope ya'll have a nice day.

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"This is not a good arguement at all... For instance Iran, they are very religious and the "radical islams" have their religion twisted to committing suicide will get you in the gates of heaven. Saying they want every American and every Jewish person dead. Preaching death to america on friday nights as if it were a high school football rally."

I was saying the removal of religion hasn't caused violence to increase. What you just posted was EXACTLY why religion causes violence. Immoral people can twist the teachings of many of the world's religions into an excuse for violence. Christianity is not exempt from this. Just look at the history of violence bred from taking the bible literally.

Yet when a tragedy (like terrorist attacks, earthquakes or hurricaines) occurs, the very people in America that asked God to leave our daily lives want to know why God let it happen and didn't prevent it.

Who are these people exactly? I was not asking god why he didn't prevent these tragedies. I was asking the government.

Its the damn ACLU and the athiests which make up like somewhere around 2-11 percent of the entire United States of America.. Why dont the around 80 some percent of Christians do somthing about it instead of letting this country have its rights taken away that founded this country and is what made freedom.. Im sure Thomas Jefferson would be irate. All i got to say is United we stand divided we fall.

It would seem to me that the First Amendment disagrees with you. Just because the founders of this country were Christian, doesn't mean that we have to be. What exactly do you want these 80% of Americans to do? Is banning homosexuality expanding our freedom? Is getting rid of pornography going to make us feel more free? Is making kids in public schools pray to your god in agreement with the concept of separation of church and state? Perhaps all of these things are in support of your religion, but they are in no way making us more free.

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"A religious debate is not possible, it will always end in a personal attack no matter how hard you try not too. I am guided by the Holy Bible and many others by other religions or non belief. I am glad they have that choice. As a Christian I offer it with no strings attached. But if you are not careful, other religions are not so generous. Its their way or the highway. And by highway I mean it ain't too good. Most Christians live as Jesus taught, live and let live. If we must have a compass, at least with Christians you are not forced to believe as we do. You can live as you see fit."

I would very much like to agree with you. I respect everything you said. However from this topic it is very clear that not everybody thinks as you do. As you can see there are many who want prayer in schools, bans on pornography, and laws against being homosexual. If we tell people they can't be homosexual or watch porn, or have abortions, how can they live as they see fit?

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- Thanks for proving my point.
[sm=smiley20.gif]

BTW.... the "g" in "God" is capitalized.

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I don't follow. You posted

"Yet when a tragedy (like terrorist attacks, earthquakes or hurricaines) occurs, the very people in America that asked God to leave our daily lives want to know why God let it happen and didn't prevent it. You invited him to leave - why do you ask where he is now?"

From what I understood you were stating that people ignore god for all their lives, and then as soon as tragedy strikes, they want to know why he didn't prevent it. For example, a "Christian" doesn't ever think about god or live his life as god would want. Then all of a sudden his mother dies, and he blames god, and wants to know why god didn't save her. This is what I thought you meant by your example. What I was saying was that I am not Christian and when these tragedies happen, I don't blame god, because I don't believe in a god. I simply assumed that you were referring to the average Americans, who were baptized, went to church every few sundays, but never really put any thought into their religion. . . who never think about god unless something bad happens, and then they use him as a scapegoat. If I'm not understanding what you're saying please correct me. Thanks.

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I will have to let Bootcamp answer that question, I don't want to put words in his mouth. But I understood it to mean that people who don't want Christian morals in their lives, might be the first to blame GOD for disaster that my befall them. I can't go out for one day without the knowledge that GODs will be done. I can't imagine walking this life without his presence in my life. I accept all that happen, good or bad. That is what has made me who I am. Without the deepest of dispare, I could not know the joy of a normal day. I hope that your days will be smooth, but in my heart I wonder how a person gets through a day with the thought of..... is this all, is this it. Scary stuff I must say. In GOD I have hope and everything to look forward to. I'm not putting anyone down at all and I hope it does not sound that way. Just thinking out loud. The joy that most days bring, I'm wishing that things will get better, but from what I know and what I see, they will only get worse. But I will pray for better times for all of the world and I know all true Christians do. Have a good night and GOD bless.

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So let me leave you with these thoughts.

1. God allows us free will to live they way we want to live. As a result, bad things happen.

2. When we live the life we want to live instead of the life he has planned for us that is when things can go wrong
because we are not living in his graces and blessings.

So this is what Jeremiah 29:11 is all about:

11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

These are words of the undisputed truth of God to live by. There is peace in those scriptures because he has plans for each and every one of us. We
just have to allow him to work in our lives and be constantly looking for his direction in our lives. This is totally awesome!

By the way, I saw George Carlin do an interview on TV and he despises Christians. So I liked him before, but I pray for him now.

For all of the sins that people do and I myself am not perfect and do commit sins, I am to love my God with all my heart, mind, and spirit. I am also to love my neighbor as myself. These are the 2 greatest commendments.

[b]Mark 12:30-31
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' [a] 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

So as a result I hate the sin but love the sinner.

Sure Christians are hypocrites because we do commit sins even though we know it is wrong. We we are forgiven for our sins. The bible tells us that. That does not mean we should keep on sinning, but should be asking God to help us with not committing those sins again. We are not perfect and that is why we are hypocrites.
People judge us harshly as hypocrites because we do bad things.......well all I can say is I am not perfect and all I can do is ask for forgiveness
and pray that God gives me the strength to not do it again.

I hope these words touch your heart and bless you in some way.

I wish I could share this with you in person.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

I couldn't find a way to disagree with the 2 above posts if I wanted to. If those beliefs work in your life that's fine. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that. So long as you apply those beliefs to your own life and not try to force them on anyone else. If you want to believe that your god has a plan for atheists as well, that's your prerogative. But this country was built on religious freedom, no matter what religion the founders had. How are gays hurting your life? How does someone getting an abortion effect you directly? You may not want these types of people influencing your children, but there will always be people with different beliefs. You can't just make everyone else change to coincide with your belief system. The world is about different types of people working together to make progress. How far have we come if the only solution we have is to make everyone the same? How will your kids become stronger people if they don't overcome these things? How can there be good without evil?

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Wanted to add something.

"I can't imagine walking this life without his presence in my life. I accept all that happen, good or bad. That is what has made me who I am. Without the deepest of dispare, I could not know the joy of a normal day. I hope that your days will be smooth, but in my heart I wonder how a person gets through a day with the thought of..... is this all, is this it. Scary stuff I must say. In GOD I have hope and everything to look forward to. I'm not putting anyone down at all and I hope it does not sound that way. Just thinking out loud."

Of course you can't imagine it, you have probably lived your entire life with the comfort of god at your side. I live my life the same as yours. I don't go through a day worrying, I take things as they are. I accept that there is far more to the universe than I could possibly understand, and that somewhere out there, there may be a being that created it all. I don't need to comfort myself with the concept of a heaven. I simply accept that when I die I die, and I have one life to live through (again, as far as I know). The endless ideas that the human mind can come up with make me much happier than just accepting one way that everything came to be. Life with or without god, has good and bad. I feel that being open minded is a far better option than to falsely comfort myself with the idea of god when things go bad. Looking at everything in this world and being amazed at how it came to be, and how minute my presence is compared to it all, is more incredible to me than coming up with an explanation. It's like watching a magic trick and going "wow, that's incredible" and then finding out how they did it. You watch it and want to know so badly how it was done, but when you find out the magic is gone.

That's how I live my life.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

In every instance I have given a personal account for myself and I believe I have said this is my own opinion. I have not passed judgement on anyone. And again I tell you no good can come from a religous disscusion without the ground rules. And we are 2 worlds apart from that. I take comfort in knowing you are content in your walk of life. But Believe me when I say I am not falsely comforted in my belief in GOD. Remember live and let live. This is where the discussion goes south, it starts by little words that are designed to make anothers choices out to be uneducated. GOD is in my presence good or bad. Its very easy to let this fall into a case of ideals. So I will leave this at that. Don't take my words as an insult, is not meant to be that, but also don't take it as a sign of weakness. That is one trait I have never had. We should all enjoy the freedoms we have here in America. And remember, it says freedom of religion not from. I have tried hard to show I donot expect everyone to conform to my way of thinking. But in the same case I donot wish to have my choices called false. You are intitled to your opinion, but lets keep it on the up and up. I have not questioned your choices and never insulted your intelligence. I wish you an awsome day and be safe.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Jeez we are so polar opposite. Take off you Ned Flanders glasses already. I am proud to be a card carrying "FREEDOM FROM RELIGION MEMBER"

We need abortion, I have assissted in many when I did my OB-GYN training. I would do 5 of them then go to lunch w/out a second thought. The gov't and the church needs to stay out a females p***Y. Only one thing needs to go in womens fun parts ME.

As far as homo's my sister and good friend are both g@y. They were not given a choice , believe it is by birth. YOUR God or what ever you call it made them that way.

And for gods sake :) leave our porn alone. I have been married for 17 yrs I need that sh*t.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

How do gays hurt me they dont, they dont bother me.. The gays are the ones to be hurt in the end.. God's intentions were for people to be re-produced, not to be with others of the same race.. 10 out of 10 gays i have met or known of in my life have had some kind of bad parenting or bad childhood, or issues with drugs.. From what i have learned it is not a matter of a irrational person liking another irrational person of the same race, but two disturbed individuals with one another.. Only proof i have is what i have seen or heard.. Me im not gay by no means im totally against any right any gay should have, except rehab or counseling.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Excellent insight. That's exactly where I was going.

I'll try to keep this reply respectful. Discussions such as this decay into insults without a show of respect.

Let's seperate "needs" and "wants". "Needs" can't be lived without. You "need" sustinence, shelter, access to medical treatment, and companionship. All other things are "wants". You "want" abortion and pornography like you "want" a new Challenger. You "need" none of them. Since we're taking a "clinical" approach, I'll try to keep my reply in the same way.

The "want" to have access to abortions is a reaction to inaction (most of the time). This can be eliminated by responsible use of birth control devices, and the ability to decide to NOT have unprotected sex. The only way I can justify abortion (in MY mind) is as a result to a life-threatening situation for the mother-to-be, or to a pregnancy resulting from a rape. Other than that, there are thousands of couples who go to great lengths to have children they would love, nuture and cherish as the gift that they are, and I'm sure would thankfully take these terminated lives from those who look upon them as an inconvenience or annoyance that should be treated like fecal matter. There are too many other economical and practical (less invasive) options available to prevent unwanted pregnancies to claim that abortion is a viable alternative or a "need".

Your brain is the largest sex organ in your body. Pornography is a convenient and innocuous way to cheat on your partner, thereby creating diversity and excitement in a routine (albeit desired and necessary) behavior. You view it prior to coitus and your brain manipulates your level of intimacy based on that. You (in your own mind) maintain your vow of faithfulness to your partner since they're physically "there", but your brain has something entirely different going on. The "diversity" that we need emotionally can sometimes be found by changes in your routine - performing the act in different places, at different times of the day, initiated in different ways, dressing up for each other, etc. Pornography is a crutch for a lack of imagination, creativity and motivation. While reproduction is primordial and the basis to ALL life forms, we're the only species that creates and uses pornography.

Homosexuality is a touchy subject since it's been "fashionable" on and off throughout history, and the arguments tend to be stronger and weaker depending on the prevailing "trends". While some research has shown physiological/chemical differences between straight and gay people, the fact remains that the process of reproduction (again, which is the basis behind our sexuality) is IMPOSSIBLE between homosexual partners, therefore considered "deviant behavior". Whether or not being gay is psychological or physiological is still debatable. If nature is left to run it's course, the purporte

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

One point that needs to be made as concerning homosexuality. Christianity is not an excuse to call people Fag or mistreat someone based on their sexual prefrence. (I wouldn’t want anyone calling me the N word so I wouldn’t call a gay person any derogatory name) You should love people and not their actions. Because as a Christian, you cannot hate someone you see and claim to love God...someone you have never seen (I John 4:20)

And concerning "pornography", just because you believe in God doesnt mean your sexlife is boring and means you need something like porn (i dont think that was your point though). If you were to translate Song of Solomon to laymest terms, it would probably more erotic than most of the books and videos out there.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Bootcamp, your first post aggrevated the hell out of me, but I can at least understand where you're going with this one. Thanks.

In response to your abortion comment, I think everyone will fully agree that birth control is a far better option. But as far as I knew, Christians were against birth control in any form. *edit, realized that made no sense(lol) and had this to add:* Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, or if you were just choosing the lesser of two evils (killing sperm better than killing fetus).

"So what about "faith"? Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to. We can't see the air around us, but we know it's there and can't live without it. Does not being able to see it mean that we can deny it's existance?
Faith (in it's MANY forms) has been with our species since the beginning of our existance. Without the belief in a supreme being and an afterlife and suffering or benefitting from the consequences of our earthly actions, we'd be a completely lawless society - living for nothing more than the moment."

I found that part interesting. That is a very scientific approach to explaining faith. There's very little religion in that statement. Maybe that's why I respect it so much. How any of that leads to "proof" that that supreme being is indeed the biblical god that you believe in, is completely up in the air. But as you said with your definition of faith, you don't require proof. My problem with people saying they have "faith", however, is that faith is completely controlled by outside factors. There may in fact be something inside each and every human being that drives us to have faith, but what exactly that belief ends up being depends on where we grew up, who raised us, our personality, etc. Someone abandoned at the age of 6 months in the wilderness who miraculously survives, is not going to grow up believing in god. They may develop a faith in something, the sun, the trees, the animals. They may even manage to come up with some sort of personal religion inside their mind, but most certainly not the biblical god that you believe in. There are so many religions in this world, and each person is "positive" that they are right, that their god is the real one. As someone who does not have a religion, how could I possibly choose? You bring that baby who was abandoned in the wilderness to modern civilization, teach him to speak, and then start teaching him about religions, what is he going to choose? How can he possibly choose. You have to teach him to believe it first, and then you have to teach him to have faith in it.

"Without the belief in a supreme being and an afterlife and suffering or benefitting from the consequences of our earthly actions, we'd be a completely lawless society - living for nothing more than the moment."

There's a few ways to look at this. The first, and I think most interesting and reasonable, is that you are 100% correct. However, not in the way that you may have intended. I don't recall where, but I had read an interesting comment from someone who did not believe in god, but believed that religion was necessary in bringing us to the point where we are today. Basically, that faith in a supreme being was a way for us to figure out what right and wrong are. I don't believe in god, but does that mean I think rape, killing and stealing are okay? Of course not. I just do not believe that belief in god is required for living a respectable life. In fact, it's completely obvious that it isn't. There are millions of people living good lives, not committing crimes, who do not believe in god. Just because their basis for morality was created by religion, doesn't mean that religion is needed anymore.

I personally, don't credit this "faith" as giving us these morals to live by. I don't believe the 10 commandments were handed down by god, I believe they were written by normal people. Even before the commandments, people were living by

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

"One point that needs to be made as concerning homosexuality. Christianity is not an excuse to call people Fag or mistreat someone based on their sexual prefrence. (I wouldn’t want anyone calling me the N word so I wouldn’t call a gay person any derogatory name) You should love people and not their actions. Because as a Christian, you cannot hate someone you see and claim to love God...someone you have never seen (I John 4:20) "

You quoted Erik M3 but I think you meant to quote Mcdonald.

"How do gays hurt me they dont, they dont bother me.. The gays are the ones to be hurt in the end.. God's intentions were for people to be re-produced, not to be with others of the same race.. 10 out of 10 gays i have met or known of in my life have had some kind of bad parenting or bad childhood, or issues with drugs.. From what i have learned it is not a matter of a irrational person liking another irrational person of the same race, but two disturbed individuals with one another.. Only proof i have is what i have seen or heard.. Me im not gay by no means im totally against any right any gay should have, except rehab or counseling."

Augh. . . this post sickens me. They dont hurt you and they don't bother you, but you're against gay rights? Last time I checked all they wanted was respect and the ability to be with eachother(the reasonable ones anyway, if they start asking for "gay reparations" I'm out of their cause ;p) The comment that all gays have bad parenting or bad childhood is rediculous. Rediculous both because obviously not all gays have had bad childhoods, and that millions of people got bad parenting and turned out completely straight. This is just pathetic stereotyping that every minority has been dealing with. If the only proof you have of this is "what you've seen and heard" then you need to open your eyes and take off the headphones.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

"Jeez we are so polar opposite. Take off you Ned Flanders glasses already. I am proud to be a card carrying "FREEDOM FROM RELIGION MEMBER"
We need abortion, I have assissted in many when I did my OB-GYN training. I would do 5 of them then go to lunch w/out a second thought. The gov't and the church needs to stay out a females p***Y. Only one thing needs to go in womens fun parts ME.
As far as homo's my sister and good friend are both g@y. They were not given a choice , believe it is by birth. YOUR God or what ever you call it made them that way.
And for gods sake :) leave our porn alone. I have been married for 17 yrs I need that sh*t. "

Apparently grammar and common courtesy are not required for OB-GYNs. I wouldn't let you go near my girlfriend's. . . . well, anything.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

thanks for the correction Justinec101,

This statement (more than most of the ones we have made) is what separates Christians and atheists. In Christianity, no one is "good" but God, even Jesus didn’t considered himself good(Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19.) That is a something that we can only become through the blood of Christ, whom has proven us good (or at least the potential for good by saving us) during his sacrifice for our sins. In Christianity, the meaning of the word good is very different than in its secular form. We (as Christians) cannot be good without God or his son Jesus who acts as a mediator between. It is hard to understand a point of view with out being a part of it. It is hard to combine faith and fact in a argument. Even more so when they are on opposing sides.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

^^^

That clears me up a bit. . . But worries me more. Are you saying that since Christians believe that people are only good with god, that they view non-christians as "bad?", or impure or something, no matter what their actions are? Please clarify on this before I say any more.

*for the record I don't consider myself atheist but for the purpose of this conversation I don't think it really matters.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

You know the Adam and Eve story right? That made us sinful ( in the Christians view). We believe that Jesus’s death and resurrection freed our souls from that sin.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:2-4)

This is also one of main points that differentiates us from Judaism’s religious views, but that is not really important to the question. Think about a parent with two kids. He loves both of them, but he will reward the one who is most obedient, and yet spend most of time trying to sway the disobedient one, because no matter how much they disobey or don’t acknowledge him, he is still their father (Luke 15: 11-31).

Besides, Christ came for us all because we all are impure

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. (Romans 5:6)

The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. (I Timothy 1:14-16)

Gods views us all as his children and he loves us all. But in fact God cares greatly about saving non Christians. We are all born in sinful flesh, but christians strive to be reborn through Christ Jesus in the spirit. Jesus came here to save what was lost to sin…all of us (Luke 19:10)


P.S. Sorry about assuming you are a atheist and I apologize if this post is redundant or unclear.

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

I guess what I am getting at, is all of that seems open to personal interpretation. Is God going to save the sinners or does he expect other Christians to do it. The problem I have here is people taking a book as fact that is telling them to go make other people believe what they believe. You may believe that it is the best way to live by, but I don't. Imagine if someone created another religion, and you became the minority, and you felt that this religion was rediculous. But they kept on pressing it upon you, putting ZEUS or something on your money, the president says let us all pray to the "thunder god" in speeches. This may all sound rediculous to you, but this is exactly how I, and many other people feel. You have no question that you're right. You know you're going to heaven and you know I'm probably going to hell. Understand I'm not pointing at you specifically, but there are many people who have made it clear that they want this country run by the bible, and they want everyone else to do so as well. You may in fact leave everyone to their own devices, gays can be gay, women can get their abortions, etc. But there are people who follow the same religion you do, who read the same book that you quote from, but they take it a different way. They feel they need to press their beliefs upon everyone else. My question is, do you not think it is dangerous to have people so completely, so absolutely sure they're right, basing these huge issues on a book that is so open to interpretation?

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

Justinec101,
I think you read past a few points in other posts.

As stated before, God has given us free will to do as we see fit. Sinners choose to save themselves or choose not to - it's thier choice.

You're jumping to conclusions here. "Research" and "can be" are not difinitive. And it doesn't have to be "one or the other" - you've left out the influence of the "Lucifer factor". For a Biblical comparison, read the story of Job.

Obviously, we have laws that regulate our behavior. Laws are broken all of the time at ALL levels of society. Our laws are based in principle on the Ten Commandments - they just expand on the basis to meet our times. Our laws are written and enforced by mankind, and we don't/can't catch everyone that commits a crime - we're human, we're flawed. God knows what wrong we do - he's not flawed - and eventually, we WILL pay for our transgressions - everyone dies eventually and will be judged then. Even Christ paid for his selfishness/humanness (his reluctance to submit to crucifiction) by decending into hell before ascending into heaven.

Regarding your post: I believe the Catholic Church forbids "birth control", but opts for the "rhythm method" - periods of increased/decreased fertility levels. I can't imagine the use of birth control methods as being forbidden by all Christian denominations. Prevention is always a better option than reaction. As for "killing sperm", I don't know that the prevention of one cell joining with another is considered "killing". Would covering your mouth when you sneeze be considered "killing germs", or preventing the spread of them?

Let me end my participation in this thread by giving you this;
It is MUCH harder to prove something DOES exist than to prove it DOESN'T.
It doesn't matter what you name him, every major religion believes in ONE God.
The Bible is written in symbolism meant to transcend time, and YES, is open to personal interpretation. No two people see ANYTHING exactly the same way.

No matter how you split hairs on the subject and details of faith, the beliefs we Christians have are that;
1) We're all God's children - believers and non-believers alike.
2) We all commit sins. Forgiveness is given to ALL of those who ASK for it.
3) We're all on this Earth together and should work together to make it a better place for ALL.
4) God loves us ALL, whether we believe in him or not.
5) By accepting and believing in Jesus Christ as the lamb of God, we assure ourselves eternal life (obviously, not in earthly form).
How does any of this hurt anyone?

On a non-religious note (where this thread started in the first place), I believe that if you come to my house and stay as a guest, show respect for my rules and follow them, and show respect for my way of life. If you like it so much that you want to l

RE: YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN
 

BootCamp.....very well said.

By the way, your #

Quote:

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5) By accepting and believing in Jesus Christ as the lamb of God, we assure ourselves eternal life

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Everyone take note the #5 above is the most important decision you will ever make for youself in your whole life.
Why? Because this is an eternal decision.