What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Just wondering what the expected price for the challenger is. I'm 15, turning 16 in December. If the price is ridiculous I will just get a charger or a GT. But I love the style of the Challenger, I was just wondering if anyone knows what the expected price for the car will be.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Regardless of what the price of these car's will be, I think you'll find the insurance for it at your age even more ridiculous ...sorry to say.

The cards are stacked against younger drivers anymore. Once upon a time ago monthly car loan payments were cheaper than monthly insurance premiums. Unless you a rider on Mom, and Dad's policy it's really tough. My hats off to ya if you can swing it.

BTW expect 35-40K but this is pure speculation.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

No matter what the price I don't think a Challenger for a 15 year old is a good life choice. Way too much power for someone of that age...imho.

No matter if anyone else agrees with me...I still don't think it's wise.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

If it gets to 40..I'll probably get a GT. And why is it not a good life choice? Would the charger be a better life choice?

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I agree 100%. I have read horror stories and seen pics of GTO's demolished by younger drivers.

400 + HP is a loaded gun.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

IMO because lack of experience of driving. I personally don't think a new driver is responsible, or experienced enough to handle a car like this. I would no way let my 16 yr old get a car of this nature. MOST 16 yr olds just don't have the dexterity or experience for it. Sorry this is the way I feel having taught my 27 yr old and 21 yr old how to drive. Call me a cautious Parent.

As far as the Charger... same deal. I also don't know any 16 yr olds that can afford to go in hawk for 40K for a car.

Insurance companies feel the same way.... That's why you can expect to be paying upwards of 400 a month in insurance for it.

I'd be a hypocrite if I'd tell ya I wouldn't want one at 16 though.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

A charger is a pretty big car..and it's not like im racing. I figured the charger would be one of the more safe cars for a person my age. I'll get one reguardless..

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Gotta agree with GTO Judge. I'm his age, have kids his age, WAS a kid your age....... We've been driving twice as long as you've been talking.
Look, Bud..... As much as we appreciate the Challenger, and enjoy the fact that you do too, the simple fact is that MOST kids your age don't have the experience or attitude to properly handle a car like the Challenger.
Besides the mere expense of the cost of buying the vehicle and insuring it (for someone YOUR age, the premiums would be extrodinary!), the simple fact is MOST 16-20 year olds just don't have the capability of driving the car to it's potential "when appropriate". There's a time and place for everything. Young men your age don't realize that MOST of the time and let testosterone overrule common sense. That fact, along with the addition of alcohol to the mix has put more classic muscle cars in the junk yard than all of the others combined (AND put more young people with bright futures in hospitals, wheelchairs and coffins).

I'll tell you the same thing I told our two oldest sons (2 more yet to get thier permits God help me).
If your first date is with Shania Twain, where do you go from there? Start off with the pretty "girl next door" that you've been looking at all of your life. If she isn't the one for you, start working your way up. No one starts at the top and stays there for very long.
Get yourself a sound, dependable, economical used car to learn on (and have your first accident with) - it's happened that way for MOST of us. I'm not trying to "rain on your parade", and I hope Dodge makes the Challenger long enough so you can get a new one - AFTER you've got a few years behind the wheel under your belt, and you're not a "slave" to the financial burden.

BTW..... both of our sons had major accidents within a year of getting thier licenses. One flipped (not rolled, FLIPPED - end over end) his mother's Saab. The other t-boned another car with his Eclipse. Neither of those cars had the power of the Challenger - Thank God! Both of our sons were very lucky and didn't sustain life threatening injuries. Both were confident in thier skills - before AND after thier accidents - and had been heard to say that they were good drivers.....then again, I can't recall ANYONE EVER saying "I'm a terrible driver".

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

If you want a safe car for someone of ANY age, get a Volvo. Yeah, I know - the image thing.
The Charger IS a safe car - we got my wife an R/T last spring. It's also a very powerful car (even the 3.5L V6) - one that could easily get away from ANYONE, let alone someone with little/no driving experience in traffic. And yes, it's listed as a large sedan. Size alone doesn't make it safe, nor does it keep you from making poor decisions. The operator behind the wheel makes a car safe or unsafe through the decisions he/she makes.
I knew it all when I was your age too - now my kids know it all and they think I'm a horse's @$$. LOL! If they only knew HALF of what I've forgotten! AND if only I listened to the people that offered ME sound advice when I was thier age, I'd have saved myself a lot of pain, inconvenience, time and money.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Well, good luck to you. A few words of advice... If you get one, or another other car for that matter, get GAP insurance.
GAP insurance if you do not already know what that is, is simply this...

Say you purchase a Charger for 30K. You take a loan out on it. You total it.. There you are owing a ton of money on it because book value will not be enough to pay the loan off. GAP insurance will cover you. What amount is left over after book value, GAP will cover it leaving you even.

Here is another tid bit.... I am sure you have seen on the news the funny car that went out of control doing a burn out killing 6 injuring 20 plus?? This guy is a pro. He lost it. Just FYI.

Another IMPORTANT piece of advice... whatever you get, a real bad mistake is to go with minimum coverage insurance like Geico or Safe Auto. Saving a few dollars on premiums to make it affordable is cool until you have an accident and find yourself hitting a car that costs 50K and your liability is only good for 20K.

There is a whole host of important decisions that go along with a hot car you are wanting besides getting the keys and driving it.

What do mom and dad think about it?

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Thats the cheap part of it, now lets talk about the other persons medical bills!

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

BTW, The Challenger will sell in the $50,000 range the first year!

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

You can wreck in anything. I have a simple question...If your so worried about safety...why are you guys drooling about how fast these cars go? I'm not a drag racer..I like the cars look..not really it's performance. Sure, it's good to brag about. But no way am I going at a speed that makes me uncomfortable. I figured with the size of the Charger it would be one of the more safe cars out there. Sure it's powerful, but a lot of things are. There are tons of cars out there you would reccomend me get..a lot that would go over speeds I will never even reach in my car.

And my parents basically just don't want me to get anything too small, I think I could easily talk them into a challenger. But I think I may just end up getting a GT..My sisters boyfriend just got a bad GT...I love it..

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I think what they are getting at is that they are concerned about your safety and inexperience. I have seen many shows that show how
young drivers have wrecks because they don't realize that things can happen quickly (ie picking up a dropped CD on the floor and taking your eyes off of the road).

One of the most common is running a stop sign or red light because they are talking with their friends. That is just pure lack of experience.

I even know of older adult drivers who have no business driving 500 HP cars because they do not know how to control and recover if they do lose control.

They have courses for that sort of thing and I recommend them to people who have never driven the bigger engines.

I think most of our discussion has to do with acceleration and not top speed unless we are at the drag strip. I do not think anybody is planning to do
174 MPH on the highways.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Agreed - made that point in the prior post regarding our two sons who wrecked in a Saab 900 and a Mitsubishi Eclipse. No argument there.
I don't remember saying anything about "going fast". I wrote about "power". That could be acceleration, top speed, roll-on/passing power, but I don't recall mentioning "going fast" anywhere in any post - here, or anywhere else.
The value brought at the Barrett-Jackson auctions for the old muscle cars is based on thier equpiment, condition, how many were made, and how many are left - especially unmolested (original, numbers matching, etc).
I'm psyched about this car because it looks like the cars being made when I was your age - okay, actually younger than you. The look and promise of similar/better performance is an opportunity to own a piece of history (my youth) revisited, and possibly, tuck away in the garage after I've gotten my fill of it for a long term investment (an original '70 Hemi Cuda Convertible brought something in the neighborhood of $2.7 million at a B-J auction. The original MSRP was somewhere around $4,000.00).
Our Charger R/T has the 5.7L in it (340 HP). I have no idea how fast it will really go. I haven't taken it to the strip, and wouldn't try in on the street. Again, there's a time and place for everything, and the highways aren't the place at any time.
That's the point I'm trying to make - our Sons THOUGHT they were comfortable at speeds that were obviously unsafe for the situations when they had thier accidents (one Son has had THREE accidents now). Young men who are new drivers aren't always realistic about what they can handle and what they can't. They don't have the benefit of years of experience.
Again, what makes a car safe or unsafe is the operator and the the decisions he/she makes. Those decisions are often influenced by experience.
Driving is a privelage, not a right. It's also an awesome responsibility.
Be safe, Bud.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Since I am the one that started this ball rolling, I will chime in here.

I am 27 and I hope to sell my current car and buy the Challenger when it comes out. That said, I do plan on doing exactly what Jeremiah said: take a driving recovery course (hopefully the allow you to use their cars...lol)

I have driven the new Mustang GT and fell in love with the power and handling. But it did make me realize...and I'm sure most would agree, this is a wild ride, and I do plan to go to the track and hopefully learn from some professionals.

I live in Toronto, Canada, and I believe there is a track west of me ...can't remember what it's called ...starts with a T ..haha


Anyhoo, I still say what I said before. Too young. Although I would have wanted the same thing when I was 16, I'm glad I didn't get it because it would most definitely have gotten out of my hands. And once it's out of your hands you crash, insurance goes up, you're paying for years. Do what the others say, get a junker, learn how to drive it...heck kill that little junker, then upgrade when you're ready...5-6 years down the road, I dunno. Cars with that much power have a tendency to get to 60mph faster than sh$t through a goose ...and worst of all, because it's built for speed it doesn't even seem like your going what the speedo says.

Parents say big car, big car = safe car, safe car = not sports car

If I was younger, and my parents were willing to spend $20-30,000 on my new car (or if you already have that kinda money...) I would probably look at a Ford Fusion or something (the only mid-size, reasonably priced car which I think looks half decent -- actually the Lincoln Mark Z...what a sweet a$$ on that car, but that's as much as the Challenger) or cool pickup like the Ford Ranger...

You're probably gonna have some response to this, saying "oh, it's not the power", "...it wont get outta control...", "...I'll drive it responsibly, I'll drive it slow" ...trust none of those things will happen unless you engage the governor chip at 60mph.

0-60mph in 4.5 sec ...enough said.



R

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Oh...and anyone know the driving recovery program I'm talking about? Toronto area?


r

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

The first thing you should do is take a drivers safety course including behind the wheel training. No offense to your parents, but I question any parent's sense of safe responsibility to their child that would give their blessing to a 16 year old who is in the infancy stages of driving the go ahead on any car that is stature.

Not only that, but the hefty price tag associated with it. Unless you are rolling in dough, I cannot phantom any parent letting a 16 year old tie up 40K or so on a first vehicle, or anything at so young an age.

A pilot doesn't get in an F-16 without first learning on a smaller less aggressive aircraft.

Youth+inexperience+horsepower= Disaster. The more you drive a car like this the more invincible you feel. The more invincible you feel the more risks you take, the more risks you take ......... read your local obits.

The odds are against you, statistics prove it. A responsible parent would be against a car like this for their 16 year old. There are plenty of cars out there to learn on. You're gonna do what ya wanna do, remember this.... For-site is better than hind-site.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Most important do yourself and your family a favor and learn to drive for a few years in a safe, reliable, small, low power car before you take on a muscle car. A new Challenger and a dead 16 year old is not how your parents want to start off 2008.

As a parent I am amazed that your parents would even consider buying you such a car. Maybe, hopefully you’re just experiencing a teenage fantasy.

The answer I gave my daughter when she was 16, got her license and asked for a V8 Mustang was, "NO" because I love you..

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

My friend just got a GT, other friend got a Mercedes, one of the SLK class cars. There not dead. And did someone just say this car doesn't even have 400 HP?

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Who says I won't take some drivers course before I get my car so I can learn how not to die?

If the more I drive this car the more invincible I will feel, it's probably the same for anyone who buys this car. Because it must give you the same feeling, considering your giving me the information. So I don't think you should buy this car, i'm worried about your safety.

My mom is against it..my dad would rather me get a H3. My parents said they would have no problem with a charger..because it's bigger. But if I really wanted a challenger, I would get one. But if it's 50k like that guy said is expected, it's not worth near that..

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I'm more worried about the other drivers on the road than you. It's the family approaching you that would be the victims should you test your prowess and lose control. The more people on here try and forewarn and advise you the more cocky you get. I can only imagine how cocky you'd get when someone challenges you in the car.
Long and short of it is... at 16 you lack the confidence and experience to be driving a car like this.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

You must respect the car and know your limits. If you haven't been over 100-120 before please god don't let your first time be in the middle of the night on the interstate where a deer could run out infront of you or something. Or just go red light to red light and not go that fast ^^

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I didn't read all of the replies, but did skim through most of it.

I do agree with most of the replies. I think most people here are trying to help you, and hopefully learn from our experiences. You have to respect the power. If you do decide to get one, please be responsible.

When I was 16 I had a 68 Charger R/T 440 with about 450hp. Being young you think you can drive as good or better than everyone else on the road. I thank god for not letting me have a serious accident. I drove like a manic, and not a care in the world. That was way to much power for me, but likely I did get some sense over the years. The good thing about these new cars, is that they handle very well.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I'll get a charger then if it's that big of a deal. I ask for a price and I get my parents telling me to get a tank. And for the people that actually answered my question thank you for not trying to tell me what to do and what not to do and worrying about yourself.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I wouldn't let someone talk you out of a vehicle that you "REALLY WANT" unless it doen't matter to you either way which car you get.

To the actually question, I think we would all like to know that answer. We all have spectuation, but no definite answer yet.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I'm not flaming you for what you want, I don't blame you for wanting a nice performance car. I'd want one too at 16. I and others are trying to get you to see reality. I've lost friends to car accidents because of younger drivers. I worked with kids in their teens who were killed because they were hot dogging and misjudged curves in the road at 70 mph. One guy in particular on a suicide crotch rocket showboating hit a tree head on. The fire crew had to peel parts of his body out of the bark of the tree. They are all statistics. The hardest thing for a young kid to do is listen to advice when they have their sites set on something they want bad.

Don't confuse advice for condemnation. Only you will know if you have the will power to refrain from a kid in an STI taunting you and calling you out.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I'm not as easy going as some. Maybe it's because I've seen to much death. I have had the awesome tasks of leaving teenage boys dead on the field of battle simply because they though they were men. They never got to be.

Would it be asking too much to if we cease with all of this wasted conversation with an obviously "spoiled child"? Children, especially young boys want to become men far too quick. It is the responsibility of the parents to decide between what a child needs and what a child wants. There is no doubt that at 16 he is a child.

If he has been raised to believe that he can have whatever it is regardless of the threat it may present to himself and the general public, then it’s just another case of bad parenting and another spoiled child that will one day run into something or someone that will not tolerate his lack of respect for himself and others. In the end they will say, "he was such a good boy". Bull****!!!

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Ditto.....agreed [sm=closed.gif][sm=goodidea.gif]

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Sorry Bud, but I was working on this when your post went up.
I don't want to turn him off completely. I agree with you 100%, but I'm worried that the accident he'll have will involve someone in my family or a friend.
When kids with little/no driving experience, an overload of hormones, false confidence, and more money than common sense get behind the wheel of high-HP 2-ton missles and drive on the same public roads that we're on, I AM worried about myself AND my family - something I'm sure that kid won't do when he's busy trying to impress someone.

I supervise work crews in Highway Construction And Maintenance in New York. We work on the Interstate Highways and part of my job is to secure accident scenes, as well as repair damage to structures on the Interstates. Would you like to know how many bodies I've seen taken away from fatal accident sites? Would you like to know what it looks and smells like? Can you guess what percentage of accident reports I get copies of that involve drivers between the ages of 16 and 21? Try 40%! Although the 16 - 21 age group represents less than 10% of the drivers on my roads, they're involved in 40% of the accidents! That ratio is STAGGERING!
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The pictures of what's left of the blue Toyota under the semi were taken when four pretty girls were going to a HS graduation party and tried to change lanes to get to thier exit. The driver was 17 - she was in the wrong lane, tried to move over two lanes and didn't look when trying to get to the exit. She didn't see the Semi until she and her three friends were under it.
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The pictures of the grey car were taken when a college student (19 years old) tried going through our road work zone between the "cushion truck" and the "work truck". She hit a car in the lane she was trying to get to (she didn't look before changing lanes) and got pushed back INTO the work truck. Fortunately, the crew got out of the way in time before she rear-ended the trailer we were pulling that had 3 tons of hot blacktop in it. The trailer didn't move - obviously, her car was destroyed. She was saved by the airbag.

These are pictures of just TWO accidents caused by poor judgement, inattentive driving, and driving while distracted. There an average of a dozen every day on the 250 miles of roads we cover. Of that dozen, 4 or 5 (on average) will involve a driver between the ages of 16 and 21. I have many much more graphic pictures, but won't post them here.
The most lasting memories of these accidents is the look on the parents faces when they arrive on the scene. For me, the worst ones are when they involve small children. Maybe it's because I have kids, but I see this every day and still get chills walking up to a scene where I can see tiny sneakers or toys scattered about the pavement. The children were the victims of others' poor decisions.
HERE'S THE AMAZING PART - Not ONE of these people are "bad drivers" or were "going too fast", "inattentive", "inexperienced", "failed to change lanes safely"...... . Ask them! Every one of them said "It happened so fast" when the troopers were interview

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Nobody is telling you what to do, but just trying to make helpful suggestions so you will live.

In the end, you are going to do whatever you want anyway........I just hope you live to tell the story.

A quick story...we had a youth in our church camp who was always cocky. He was a cheerleader, athletic, muscular, and all of the girls liked him.
He was living in the fast lane. One day he wrapped his motorcycle around a tree on a curve.

Surprisingly, he survived. I saw him one day working a cell phone kiosk in a shopping mall. I walked up to him to get a closer look and he faced was all scared
and half of his upper teech had to be held in with some sort of bridge. He also had plates and screws put on the front of his facial bones. He said hi and remembered
me. He spoke very humbly and said he was blessed to be alive and wanted to know what work God still had for him to do since he lived.

His life was changed forever and he was not the cocky 17 year old I remembered any more but a 21 year old that was more humble and God given him another chance.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I ask for the price of a challenger, and I get someone on the internet quoting what my family is going to say when I run into a person. Congratulations for member of the year and the added cussing effect at the end, it really gave the post that extra emotion. And how does having a sports car make you a man? Your perception is screwed. And to all the people saying "this kid is spoiled" and such, mind your own business? Who gives a hell if I'm spoiled, posting about it won't change anything. I came on the internet to get facts, not to be babied.


You act like I am so spoiled and idiotic and I brought this group flaming upon myself but you guys are the ones that are going out of your way to talk about my inexperience. You say your so worried for your friends and family that when I wreck I will kill somebody, when I'm sure if I hit someone in a Ram I would be much more worried about your family. Just a thought.



Typo? And to the story..I understand what your saying, but that is a motorcycle, and I'm not a speed demon. I'm usually told to speed up when I drive with dad..I just barely creep down the roads.

I have no idea what an STI is and what do you mean by calling me out? Like asking me to race? Only I will know if I have the power, right? So why are YOU telling me not to get this car if you have no idea?

I understand that you guys are concerned for my safety, and I appreciate that. But most of you guys are speculating I'm going to go race this car with people, when I know i'm not. I'm a lot smarter than that. I have had this conversation with my parents.

I can't drink and drive, can't be caught racing, etc. or my car is gone.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Spoiled or not, hardly the case. I think one can be spoiled and still have an excellent sense of reality and moral awareness; however, I truly do find it hard to believe your foot will NEVER get a little heavy. For someone to deny it is just exactly like admitting it's gonna happen.

All of us have had the heavy foot the only difference is we've had experience over the years (me 11 years, others, many more). I can tell you right now, I've been driving all these years and still am in awe of the power, I could honestly not imagine having that much HP after getting my license.

Sorry, skillz, I know you want, and trust me, I understand...it's a hot car, and $hit if someone was gonna buy it for me, I wouldn't stop them, but honestly dude get something a little less potent.

I've never driven a Charger V6, but I can't see why that wouldn't be good...someone here said it's a bit quick...but it's better than you getting the Challenger. And if the parents don't have any reservations about buying you a Charger, a Hummer H3, than they probably wouldn't have a problem buying you another car 2-3 years down the road.


Peace man ...chill out, and show a little respect to the fellow Challenger fans, even if we didn't directly answer your question, we answered it indirectly, life is priceless.


R

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

STI = Subaru Impreza STI

One of the VERY few Japanese cars I have respect for...HP and Torque...who knew if matched together you could have that kinda power...it's almost unthinkable.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Boys, I live in eastern kentucky. Noone around here goes and drag races down the hollers. And i'm sure about 99% of us have no idea what an STI is.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Well...I'm not really surprised. You are on a Challenger board, therefore you probably arn't interested in any of the imports.

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I think you all owe the young man an apology for ganging up on him. He came here to participate in the passion about this great car and you guys slammed him with your high and mighty attitudes. You need to step back and check yourselves. Yes, the Challenger has power and yes he certainly is not as experienced behind the wheel as us old farts but cut him a break on the attitude.

I suggest you work on your approach. You ask him to show respect for us & yet he was extended very little. It's just fine to express your concern for him and offer him some constructive advice but think before you hit that OK button...

[:'(]

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I don't think that was disrespectful at all. Actually, I think I'd have been remiss as a co-enthusiast, parent, and a responsible adult if I didn't make these statements.
There have been a lot of "elders" that helped shape my life with thier advice. If I didn't take it for it's intended meaning at the time, I never forgot it and found use for it later.
I think I'd have had no respect for someone who knew better than I and DIDN'T share thier experience, wisdom and knowledge with me - and it cost me dearly later.
I don't discourage his passion for the Challenger. With the expected performance of the equipment we're all under the impression this car will be made with, I expect NONE of us would have been capable of properly controlling it at his age, let alone exercising good judgment when a questionable situation (challenge from another teenager) arose.
As far as "ganging up" on him, I'd prefer to look at it as the expression of a "consensus".

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

Well im a first time poster here but ive been tuned in everyday for any news on the new challenger. I too am only 15 years old and i can relate to what your feeling here. The looks, the power, the whole aspect of the challenger is awsome. But the idea of purchasing one at such an age is not a very smart choice. I would wait until you get some experience under your belt. As i've read your parents can afford nice vehicles for you, but instead of going right into 426 hp beast drive maybe a v6 charger (was mentioned before) just to get some experience dealing with the road and not to mention the other bad drivers you will come across. My dad use to have 70 hemi challenger and a pair of 318 panther pink convertibles. He sold them when me and my sister were introduced into this world. So hopefully my mom will let him get another chance to drive a hemi challenger without having to pay 250,000 or more for and authentic one:) . But what im getting to is that even if does get one (he better) i can tell you right now i will not be driving it by choice. I understand what kind of car that is, and if i did get behind the wheel I would'nt be goin over 40Kmh. I have fun driving my dads canyon I5, its preppy but its not a rubber burner. Ill wait until i get atleast 5 years experience before i drive one of those monsters. Anyway just my 2 cents coming from the perspective of another 15 year old with the challenger craze.

Mr.Myers
Toronto (mississauga), Ontario

RE: What is the expected price for the Challenger?
 

I agree with you, awsure. He comes here asking a simple question and gets called a "know it all" and an "obviously spoiled child." The fact that he withstood two days of this before responding to the attitude in-kind shows me more patience and self-control than any other 15 year-old I know. Those are qualities that bode well for a responsible driver.

I appreciate all the helpful suggestions that were offered here. I hope he takes them to heart. But if you don't think you've been "piling-on" him, just take a look at the thread title and count how many posts actually are on-topic.

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