Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
10-08-2007, 11:31 AM
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RE: Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
Before I make any other statements, I acknowledge your affinity for Ford products. That in itself (as you proclaimed in your initial post here) slants your opinion. But that's okay. I can appreciate your loyalty.
The fact is that the Mustang has been "the only (pony car) game in town" since 2002. That accounts for the majority of it's success. No special loyalty, marketing, or "edition" is required when one has a monopoly on a market/segment. Kudos to Ford for recognizing that and making the most of it. GM and Chrysler are late getting on the boat.
What I call a "limited edition" is 5000 or fewer cars. With over 10,000 2007 GT500's alone - not counting all of the other "variants" - I wouldn't call that a limited edition, but that's only MY opinion.
If the buyer of the #2 '07 Shelby wasn't aware of how many were being produced, as well as how many other variations Ford and partners would create, I'd say he should be pretty p*$$#d off - the value of his "collectable" is worth far less that he had originally hoped/planned, so his investment will be very difficult to recover at ANY time. Aditionally, he had a very good idea of what the production car would look like since the GT was already being produced/sold, and the Shelby has ALWAYS looked agressive, but similar, with the addition of cosmetic bolt-ons/embellishments, suspension improvements, and more HP under the hood.
When Chrysler LLC releases the Challenger (which we still haven't seen a production car of ANY kind), I expect dealers to get whatever they can for them, and yes, I'm sure (initially) they'll be over MSRP. But Dodge won't mark up the Challenger - the dealerships will and at their own risk. I won't pay over sticker for a car - never have, never will. I will not be gouged for a car that will be worth 20% less than sticker as soon as I drive it off of the lot. What you call "the big boys" are simply people with more money than sense and insist on having what they want NOW, regardless of how much it costs. There will ALWAYS be people like that, but they're far fewer in numbers than the rest of us, and Chrysler (as well as Ford and GM) know that.
Challenger numbers are in question, no doubt. What's even more difficult to digest is the same quandry that faced the buyer of Shelby MustangGT500 #2 - what MIGHT be offered in the next model year? How many will be SRT8's? What can I expect for a drivertrain combo in ALL levels? How many levels will there be? Will the 6.4L be available in a production vehicle?
As far as "stealing market share" from the Mustang, you could look at it as Chrysler has "given" their market share to Ford for the last three years (with the remodeling of the Mustang in '05) and is set to reclaim it with the Challenger in '08. It's purely a matter of semantics, but there WILL be other dancers on the floor very soon. There should be plenty of buyers to satisfy Chrysler, Ford AND GM with a great number of baby-boomers reaching their financial summits now.
No matter WHO makes WHAT, if the product and price isn't right, people will buy something else. It's that simple, and any marketing guru working for the big three is painfully aware of that already.
"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door," (Ralph Waldo Emerson). I agree! But through February of 2008, there's only been ONE mousetrap available. We'll see who has what sitting on the lot for their "year end clearance sales" in the fall of 2009.
The fact is that the Mustang has been "the only (pony car) game in town" since 2002. That accounts for the majority of it's success. No special loyalty, marketing, or "edition" is required when one has a monopoly on a market/segment. Kudos to Ford for recognizing that and making the most of it. GM and Chrysler are late getting on the boat.
What I call a "limited edition" is 5000 or fewer cars. With over 10,000 2007 GT500's alone - not counting all of the other "variants" - I wouldn't call that a limited edition, but that's only MY opinion.
If the buyer of the #2 '07 Shelby wasn't aware of how many were being produced, as well as how many other variations Ford and partners would create, I'd say he should be pretty p*$$#d off - the value of his "collectable" is worth far less that he had originally hoped/planned, so his investment will be very difficult to recover at ANY time. Aditionally, he had a very good idea of what the production car would look like since the GT was already being produced/sold, and the Shelby has ALWAYS looked agressive, but similar, with the addition of cosmetic bolt-ons/embellishments, suspension improvements, and more HP under the hood.
When Chrysler LLC releases the Challenger (which we still haven't seen a production car of ANY kind), I expect dealers to get whatever they can for them, and yes, I'm sure (initially) they'll be over MSRP. But Dodge won't mark up the Challenger - the dealerships will and at their own risk. I won't pay over sticker for a car - never have, never will. I will not be gouged for a car that will be worth 20% less than sticker as soon as I drive it off of the lot. What you call "the big boys" are simply people with more money than sense and insist on having what they want NOW, regardless of how much it costs. There will ALWAYS be people like that, but they're far fewer in numbers than the rest of us, and Chrysler (as well as Ford and GM) know that.
Challenger numbers are in question, no doubt. What's even more difficult to digest is the same quandry that faced the buyer of Shelby MustangGT500 #2 - what MIGHT be offered in the next model year? How many will be SRT8's? What can I expect for a drivertrain combo in ALL levels? How many levels will there be? Will the 6.4L be available in a production vehicle?
As far as "stealing market share" from the Mustang, you could look at it as Chrysler has "given" their market share to Ford for the last three years (with the remodeling of the Mustang in '05) and is set to reclaim it with the Challenger in '08. It's purely a matter of semantics, but there WILL be other dancers on the floor very soon. There should be plenty of buyers to satisfy Chrysler, Ford AND GM with a great number of baby-boomers reaching their financial summits now.
No matter WHO makes WHAT, if the product and price isn't right, people will buy something else. It's that simple, and any marketing guru working for the big three is painfully aware of that already.
"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door," (Ralph Waldo Emerson). I agree! But through February of 2008, there's only been ONE mousetrap available. We'll see who has what sitting on the lot for their "year end clearance sales" in the fall of 2009.
10-08-2007, 12:15 PM
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RE: Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
I would argue your point earlier about the majority of the Mustang's success being post-2002....my contention is that if the Mustang wasn't so successful from Day 1, they'd probably still be building Challengers, Camaros and/or GTOs present day, wouldn't they? Believe me, although I've owned 5 Fords; I am in now way married to Ford. I am getting a Challenger, it's just a matter of time! I think Tom Petty said it best: "The waiting is the hardest part." So true TP!
Also, I think we're splitting hairs here on what is deemed "limited edition". Put it this way - 30 years from now, I guarantee an all-original 2007 Shelby GT500 in mint condition will sell for considerably more money than what the original Owner paid for it back in the day. Whether that kind of scenario constitutes "limited edition" status or not, I don't know. Regardless, ANY Shelby manufactured in 2007 is considered an instant collector car. I don't think there is anything anyone could argue that would convince me otherwise.
Also, your statement earlier ("There should be plenty of buyers to satisfy Chrysler, Ford AND GM with a great number of baby-boomers reaching their financial summits now") seems to indicate your belief that the Challenger's target market is just the "Baby Boomer" generation. Certainly those are the folks that purchased, drove and loved the orginals. However, I have to believe that I'm not the only 34 year old Gen. X'er out there with a hard-on for this car AND the money to buy it! If Dodge is pricing and marketing this car specifically for Baby Boomers only, I think they are making a huge mistake! Let's continue to let Chevy's Corvette be the premier destination for Baby Boomers who are on the market for an American sports car icon! If the Challenger is going to be effective in competing with the Mustang, it needs to be priced and marketed as such. Let's see if Dodge can actually do it...God I hope so!!!!
[quote]ORIGINAL: BootCamp
Before I make any other statements, I acknowledge your affinity for Ford products. That in itself (as you proclaimed in your initial post here) slants your opinion. But that's okay. I can appreciate your loyalty.
The fact is that the Mustang has been "the only (pony car) game in town" since 2002. That accounts for the majority of it's success. No special loyalty, marketing, or "edition" is required when one has a monopoly on a market/segment. Kudos to Ford for recognizing that and making the most of it. GM and Chrysler are late getting on the boat.
What I call a "limited edition" is 5000 or fewer cars. With over 10,000 2007 GT500's alone - not counting all of the other "variants" - I wouldn't call that a limited edition, but that's only MY opinion.
If the buyer of the #2 '07 Shelby wasn't aware of how many were being produced, as well as how many other variations Ford and partners would create, I'd say he should be pretty p*$$#d off - the value of his "collectable" is worth far less that he had originally hoped/planned, so his investment will be very difficult to recover at ANY time. Aditionally, he had a very good idea of what the production car would look like since the GT was already being produced/sold, and the Shelby has ALWAYS looked agressive, but similar, with the addition of cosmetic bolt-ons/embellishments, suspension improvements, and more HP under the hood.
When Chrysler LLC releases the Challenger (which we still haven't seen a production car of ANY kind), I expect dealers to get whatever they can for them, and yes, I'm sure (initially) they'll be over MSRP. But Dodge won't mark up the Challenger - the dealerships will and at their own risk. I won't pay over sticker for a car - never have, never will. I will not be gouged for a car that will be worth 20% less than sticker as soon as I drive it off of the lot. What you call "the big bo
Also, I think we're splitting hairs here on what is deemed "limited edition". Put it this way - 30 years from now, I guarantee an all-original 2007 Shelby GT500 in mint condition will sell for considerably more money than what the original Owner paid for it back in the day. Whether that kind of scenario constitutes "limited edition" status or not, I don't know. Regardless, ANY Shelby manufactured in 2007 is considered an instant collector car. I don't think there is anything anyone could argue that would convince me otherwise.
Also, your statement earlier ("There should be plenty of buyers to satisfy Chrysler, Ford AND GM with a great number of baby-boomers reaching their financial summits now") seems to indicate your belief that the Challenger's target market is just the "Baby Boomer" generation. Certainly those are the folks that purchased, drove and loved the orginals. However, I have to believe that I'm not the only 34 year old Gen. X'er out there with a hard-on for this car AND the money to buy it! If Dodge is pricing and marketing this car specifically for Baby Boomers only, I think they are making a huge mistake! Let's continue to let Chevy's Corvette be the premier destination for Baby Boomers who are on the market for an American sports car icon! If the Challenger is going to be effective in competing with the Mustang, it needs to be priced and marketed as such. Let's see if Dodge can actually do it...God I hope so!!!!
[quote]ORIGINAL: BootCamp
Before I make any other statements, I acknowledge your affinity for Ford products. That in itself (as you proclaimed in your initial post here) slants your opinion. But that's okay. I can appreciate your loyalty.
The fact is that the Mustang has been "the only (pony car) game in town" since 2002. That accounts for the majority of it's success. No special loyalty, marketing, or "edition" is required when one has a monopoly on a market/segment. Kudos to Ford for recognizing that and making the most of it. GM and Chrysler are late getting on the boat.
What I call a "limited edition" is 5000 or fewer cars. With over 10,000 2007 GT500's alone - not counting all of the other "variants" - I wouldn't call that a limited edition, but that's only MY opinion.
If the buyer of the #2 '07 Shelby wasn't aware of how many were being produced, as well as how many other variations Ford and partners would create, I'd say he should be pretty p*$$#d off - the value of his "collectable" is worth far less that he had originally hoped/planned, so his investment will be very difficult to recover at ANY time. Aditionally, he had a very good idea of what the production car would look like since the GT was already being produced/sold, and the Shelby has ALWAYS looked agressive, but similar, with the addition of cosmetic bolt-ons/embellishments, suspension improvements, and more HP under the hood.
When Chrysler LLC releases the Challenger (which we still haven't seen a production car of ANY kind), I expect dealers to get whatever they can for them, and yes, I'm sure (initially) they'll be over MSRP. But Dodge won't mark up the Challenger - the dealerships will and at their own risk. I won't pay over sticker for a car - never have, never will. I will not be gouged for a car that will be worth 20% less than sticker as soon as I drive it off of the lot. What you call "the big bo
10-08-2007, 01:29 PM
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RE: Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
Good points. Challenger, Camaro, TransAm, Firebird, etc... have all dipped into the market share of the best known Pony Car - the Mustang in the past. (Notice I said best known...not best) Let's face it the Mustang is an icon that is a recognized worldwide. This is the only pony that has had sustainable sales to keep it a viable part of the Ford lineup year in and year out.
I think in the grand scheme of things Challenger buyers will find pricing reigned (after the first release excitement wears off) in precisely because Mustang is a good seller & because of new additions like Camaro to the landscape.
I think the $175k for the #2 will prove a STEAL in 10+ years.
I think in the grand scheme of things Challenger buyers will find pricing reigned (after the first release excitement wears off) in precisely because Mustang is a good seller & because of new additions like Camaro to the landscape.
I think the $175k for the #2 will prove a STEAL in 10+ years.
10-08-2007, 01:30 PM
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RE: Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
I'm not saying Chrysler is producing the Challenger exclusively for baby-boomers. I'm saying the Shelby GT500, Challenger and Camaro are targeting that segment of the market. I'm sure if someone had the $$$, no one would be asked, let alone turned away from a dealership because of their age, sex, race, religion, what have you.
I've owned just about every make of car (with the exception of the exotics and EuroElites). I stick with what gives me fewest problems - best value for my dollar - and that's been with MOPAR's.
$2,160,000.00 was brought for the 1970 Hemi Cuda Convertible at a Barrett Jackson auction - I believe it was Scottsdale, 2006 (but I'm not positive). That's the highest price ever brought for a production muscle car.
The Hemi Cuda base MSRP'd for around $5400.00, with the Hemi option (426 @ 425 HP) constituting $900.00 of the price. There were 666 Hemi Cuda's produced in 1970.
1965 was the first year Ford offered the GT350, and 1967 was the first year Ford offered the GT500. 2050 GT500's were made in 1967 with a base price of $4,195.00. Most of the best ones I've seen auctioned at Barrett Jackson auctions bring in the $600,000 range - what the buyer of the 2007 Shelby GT500 #0001 paid for his new.[/i]
There were 1251 1968 Shelby GT500KR's made with the 428 CobraJet engine (335 HP), which had a base MSRP of $4,495.00, was nearly a half second slower than the Hemi Cuda from 0-60, nearly a second slower in the 1/4 mile, but weighed 700 lbs less than the Hemi.[/i]
What does this say? Historically;
Hemi's cost more up front, are faster, heavier, rarer, worth more, and (apparently) more sought after, therefore a better investment.
You can buy whatever tickles your fancy. I still want the best value for my dollar, so I'll wait for the Challenger with the best engine/tranny combo I can get, and I won't pay more than MSRP, even if it means I have to wait, or get a used/repo'd one and save myself the "gas guzzler tax" we have to pay on a new one.
If Chrysler is foolish and doesn't have something extremely close to the concept, or they have drivetrain combo's that don't "stir me", or the price is rediculous, I'll look for other options. I don't expect Chrysler (or ANY manufacturer) to "give cars away", but keep the prices competitive with the other "pony cars" that offer similar performance.
I WANT this car, I don't NEED this car. Therein, I control the negotiations and the price. If the dealer wants to gouge me, there's no negotiation - I walk out - sale lost. Not so many "reserve" of $60K+ auctions on Ebay for GT500s anymore. People are tired of paying $15-20K over the $40-45K MSRP on GT500s, so the prices are slowly falling. Dealers are waking up. Buy a new GT500 today for $55,000.00 - you get a year newer car for $5-10K less than the first ones sold for. People aren't stupid - they just take a little time to smarten up.
I don't think we really disagree in basis. We're looking for the same thing - a great looking car for a good price with the right equipment in it.
I've owned just about every make of car (with the exception of the exotics and EuroElites). I stick with what gives me fewest problems - best value for my dollar - and that's been with MOPAR's.
$2,160,000.00 was brought for the 1970 Hemi Cuda Convertible at a Barrett Jackson auction - I believe it was Scottsdale, 2006 (but I'm not positive). That's the highest price ever brought for a production muscle car.
The Hemi Cuda base MSRP'd for around $5400.00, with the Hemi option (426 @ 425 HP) constituting $900.00 of the price. There were 666 Hemi Cuda's produced in 1970.
1965 was the first year Ford offered the GT350, and 1967 was the first year Ford offered the GT500. 2050 GT500's were made in 1967 with a base price of $4,195.00. Most of the best ones I've seen auctioned at Barrett Jackson auctions bring in the $600,000 range - what the buyer of the 2007 Shelby GT500 #0001 paid for his new.[/i]
There were 1251 1968 Shelby GT500KR's made with the 428 CobraJet engine (335 HP), which had a base MSRP of $4,495.00, was nearly a half second slower than the Hemi Cuda from 0-60, nearly a second slower in the 1/4 mile, but weighed 700 lbs less than the Hemi.[/i]
What does this say? Historically;
Hemi's cost more up front, are faster, heavier, rarer, worth more, and (apparently) more sought after, therefore a better investment.
You can buy whatever tickles your fancy. I still want the best value for my dollar, so I'll wait for the Challenger with the best engine/tranny combo I can get, and I won't pay more than MSRP, even if it means I have to wait, or get a used/repo'd one and save myself the "gas guzzler tax" we have to pay on a new one.
If Chrysler is foolish and doesn't have something extremely close to the concept, or they have drivetrain combo's that don't "stir me", or the price is rediculous, I'll look for other options. I don't expect Chrysler (or ANY manufacturer) to "give cars away", but keep the prices competitive with the other "pony cars" that offer similar performance.
I WANT this car, I don't NEED this car. Therein, I control the negotiations and the price. If the dealer wants to gouge me, there's no negotiation - I walk out - sale lost. Not so many "reserve" of $60K+ auctions on Ebay for GT500s anymore. People are tired of paying $15-20K over the $40-45K MSRP on GT500s, so the prices are slowly falling. Dealers are waking up. Buy a new GT500 today for $55,000.00 - you get a year newer car for $5-10K less than the first ones sold for. People aren't stupid - they just take a little time to smarten up.
I don't think we really disagree in basis. We're looking for the same thing - a great looking car for a good price with the right equipment in it.
10-08-2007, 01:44 PM
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RE: Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
I'll keep it short. The only reason the new Challenger went for such a low price was the limitations put on possible buyers by the seller. Had that car been on the block at Barrett/Jackson, yes here in Az in Scottsdale, it would have went for well over $500,000.00. Why, because the money is here and the market would bear it that's why.
Short, sweet, simple and to the point.
Short, sweet, simple and to the point.
10-09-2007, 05:22 AM
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RE: Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
Albeeno,
I would defer to your point about if the Chally were being targeted to exclusively Baby Boomers being a big mistake; but I don't believe this to be the case at all. I think they've seen the error of their ways in the Charger (no knock to those who own it, I think the Chargers are fine looking cars and have a good ride) but the fact they took an icon and imho neutered it to a degree by making it only available in sedan and auto tranny is something they're trying to rectify .... I believe this offering the Challenger is their effort to seek atonement for this....(and maybe what would be nice in addition is a two door Charger w/ Stick in a year or two, w/ a wheel base between the current Charger and the Chally)
As far as targeting to the younger dems, they cannot be so obtuse or myopic to make this car unavailable or unattractive to those looking to buy at many different levels. As a Gen-Xer myself, I fully intend to buy in the second year. As marketing folks they can't ignore one of the most attractive segments....not as cash flush as the baby boomers, but willing to buy what they want regardless....
Again to your point..the fact they are even offering this, means they see the opp for ROI and I'm sure Chrylser/Cerberus had more than a few departments figuring out 1. Price Points and 2. Intended audiences. I'm sure they know there are enough in our dem, who were infected by our parents enthusiasm to these types of cars who owned the originals and aggrandized the epic Mopars of years past.....hopefully they'll offer breadth in the model enough to let everyone celebrate in the Chally...and bring these back strong and find a nice balance to where it lures their creative juices to put some innovative offerings on the table again.....
I would defer to your point about if the Chally were being targeted to exclusively Baby Boomers being a big mistake; but I don't believe this to be the case at all. I think they've seen the error of their ways in the Charger (no knock to those who own it, I think the Chargers are fine looking cars and have a good ride) but the fact they took an icon and imho neutered it to a degree by making it only available in sedan and auto tranny is something they're trying to rectify .... I believe this offering the Challenger is their effort to seek atonement for this....(and maybe what would be nice in addition is a two door Charger w/ Stick in a year or two, w/ a wheel base between the current Charger and the Chally)
ORIGINAL: Albeeno
Certainly those are the folks that purchased, drove and loved the orginals. However, I have to believe that I'm not the only 34 year old Gen. X'er out there with a hard-on for this car AND the money to buy it! If Dodge is pricing and marketing this car specifically for Baby Boomers only, I think they are making a huge mistake!
Certainly those are the folks that purchased, drove and loved the orginals. However, I have to believe that I'm not the only 34 year old Gen. X'er out there with a hard-on for this car AND the money to buy it! If Dodge is pricing and marketing this car specifically for Baby Boomers only, I think they are making a huge mistake!
Again to your point..the fact they are even offering this, means they see the opp for ROI and I'm sure Chrylser/Cerberus had more than a few departments figuring out 1. Price Points and 2. Intended audiences. I'm sure they know there are enough in our dem, who were infected by our parents enthusiasm to these types of cars who owned the originals and aggrandized the epic Mopars of years past.....hopefully they'll offer breadth in the model enough to let everyone celebrate in the Chally...and bring these back strong and find a nice balance to where it lures their creative juices to put some innovative offerings on the table again.....
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10-09-2007, 12:21 PM
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RE: Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
Here's some thoughts related to Ford and any alleged superiority associated with Price @ auctions.......
I would say, at first blush with a quickly googled url.......that the numbers hailing from Ford's most elite offering vs. Dodge's most elite are not that far apart
http://www.fordgt.net/
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*
And if Chrysler ever had the onions to have offered the ME412....forget it........of course now they've split from Daimler (finally!) that's a harder nut to crack....
http://www.allpar.com/cars/me412.html
I would say, at first blush with a quickly googled url.......that the numbers hailing from Ford's most elite offering vs. Dodge's most elite are not that far apart
http://www.fordgt.net/
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*
And if Chrysler ever had the onions to have offered the ME412....forget it........of course now they've split from Daimler (finally!) that's a harder nut to crack....
http://www.allpar.com/cars/me412.html
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10-10-2007, 08:38 AM
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RE: Second Chally off Production Line On Sale On Ebay
Would have been nice to see them throw a 2006 Ford GT in to the comparison, just for good measure. I'm sure the Viper would have looked real cute in the GT's rear view mirror...
ORIGINAL: DamnSkippy
Here's some thoughts related to Ford and any alleged superiority associated with Price @ auctions.......
I would say, at first blush with a quickly googled url.......that the numbers hailing from Ford's most elite offering vs. Dodge's most elite are not that far apart
http://www.fordgt.net/
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*
And if Chrysler ever had the onions to have offered the ME412....forget it........of course now they've split from Daimler (finally!) that's a harder nut to crack....
http://www.allpar.com/cars/me412.html
Here's some thoughts related to Ford and any alleged superiority associated with Price @ auctions.......
I would say, at first blush with a quickly googled url.......that the numbers hailing from Ford's most elite offering vs. Dodge's most elite are not that far apart
http://www.fordgt.net/
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*
And if Chrysler ever had the onions to have offered the ME412....forget it........of course now they've split from Daimler (finally!) that's a harder nut to crack....
http://www.allpar.com/cars/me412.html