joeyr

One point that needs to be made as concerning homosexuality. Christianity is not an excuse to call people Fag or mistreat someone based on their sexual prefrence. (I wouldn’t want anyone calling me the N word so I wouldn’t call a gay person any derogatory name) You should love people and not their actions. Because as a Christian, you cannot hate someone you see and claim to love God...someone you have never seen (I John 4:20)

And concerning "pornography", just because you believe in God doesnt mean your sexlife is boring and means you need something like porn (i dont think that was your point though). If you were to translate Song of Solomon to laymest terms, it would probably more erotic than most of the books and videos out there.

Justinec101

Bootcamp, your first post aggrevated the hell out of me, but I can at least understand where you're going with this one. Thanks.

In response to your abortion comment, I think everyone will fully agree that birth control is a far better option. But as far as I knew, Christians were against birth control in any form. *edit, realized that made no sense(lol) and had this to add:* Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, or if you were just choosing the lesser of two evils (killing sperm better than killing fetus).

"So what about "faith"? Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to. We can't see the air around us, but we know it's there and can't live without it. Does not being able to see it mean that we can deny it's existance?
Faith (in it's MANY forms) has been with our species since the beginning of our existance. Without the belief in a supreme being and an afterlife and suffering or benefitting from the consequences of our earthly actions, we'd be a completely lawless society - living for nothing more than the moment."

I found that part interesting. That is a very scientific approach to explaining faith. There's very little religion in that statement. Maybe that's why I respect it so much. How any of that leads to "proof" that that supreme being is indeed the biblical god that you believe in, is completely up in the air. But as you said with your definition of faith, you don't require proof. My problem with people saying they have "faith", however, is that faith is completely controlled by outside factors. There may in fact be something inside each and every human being that drives us to have faith, but what exactly that belief ends up being depends on where we grew up, who raised us, our personality, etc. Someone abandoned at the age of 6 months in the wilderness who miraculously survives, is not going to grow up believing in god. They may develop a faith in something, the sun, the trees, the animals. They may even manage to come up with some sort of personal religion inside their mind, but most certainly not the biblical god that you believe in. There are so many religions in this world, and each person is "positive" that they are right, that their god is the real one. As someone who does not have a religion, how could I possibly choose? You bring that baby who was abandoned in the wilderness to modern civilization, teach him to speak, and then start teaching him about religions, what is he going to choose? How can he possibly choose. You have to teach him to believe it first, and then you have to teach him to have faith in it.

"Without the belief in a supreme being and an afterlife and suffering or benefitting from the consequences of our earthly actions, we'd be a completely lawless society - living for nothing more than the moment."

There's a few ways to look at this. The first, and I think most interesting and reasonable, is that you are 100% correct. However, not in the way that you may have intended. I don't recall where, but I had read an interesting comment from someone who did not believe in god, but believed that religion was necessary in bringing us to the point where we are today. Basically, that faith in a supreme being was a way for us to figure out what right and wrong are. I don't believe in god, but does that mean I think rape, killing and stealing are okay? Of course not. I just do not believe that belief in god is required for living a respectable life. In fact, it's completely obvious that it isn't. There are millions of people living good lives, not committing crimes, who do not believe in god. Just because their basis for morality was created by religion, doesn't mean that religion is needed anymore.

I personally, don't credit this "faith" as giving us these morals to live by. I don't believe the 10 commandments were handed down by god, I believe they were written by normal people. Even before the commandments, people were living by

Justinec101

"One point that needs to be made as concerning homosexuality. Christianity is not an excuse to call people Fag or mistreat someone based on their sexual prefrence. (I wouldn’t want anyone calling me the N word so I wouldn’t call a gay person any derogatory name) You should love people and not their actions. Because as a Christian, you cannot hate someone you see and claim to love God...someone you have never seen (I John 4:20) "

You quoted Erik M3 but I think you meant to quote Mcdonald.

"How do gays hurt me they dont, they dont bother me.. The gays are the ones to be hurt in the end.. God's intentions were for people to be re-produced, not to be with others of the same race.. 10 out of 10 gays i have met or known of in my life have had some kind of bad parenting or bad childhood, or issues with drugs.. From what i have learned it is not a matter of a irrational person liking another irrational person of the same race, but two disturbed individuals with one another.. Only proof i have is what i have seen or heard.. Me im not gay by no means im totally against any right any gay should have, except rehab or counseling."

Augh. . . this post sickens me. They dont hurt you and they don't bother you, but you're against gay rights? Last time I checked all they wanted was respect and the ability to be with eachother(the reasonable ones anyway, if they start asking for "gay reparations" I'm out of their cause ;p) The comment that all gays have bad parenting or bad childhood is rediculous. Rediculous both because obviously not all gays have had bad childhoods, and that millions of people got bad parenting and turned out completely straight. This is just pathetic stereotyping that every minority has been dealing with. If the only proof you have of this is "what you've seen and heard" then you need to open your eyes and take off the headphones.

Justinec101

"Jeez we are so polar opposite. Take off you Ned Flanders glasses already. I am proud to be a card carrying "FREEDOM FROM RELIGION MEMBER"
We need abortion, I have assissted in many when I did my OB-GYN training. I would do 5 of them then go to lunch w/out a second thought. The gov't and the church needs to stay out a females p***Y. Only one thing needs to go in womens fun parts ME.
As far as homo's my sister and good friend are both g@y. They were not given a choice , believe it is by birth. YOUR God or what ever you call it made them that way.
And for gods sake leave our porn alone. I have been married for 17 yrs I need that sh*t. "

Apparently grammar and common courtesy are not required for OB-GYNs. I wouldn't let you go near my girlfriend's. . . . well, anything.

joeyr

thanks for the correction Justinec101,

This statement (more than most of the ones we have made) is what separates Christians and atheists. In Christianity, no one is "good" but God, even Jesus didn’t considered himself good(Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19.) That is a something that we can only become through the blood of Christ, whom has proven us good (or at least the potential for good by saving us) during his sacrifice for our sins. In Christianity, the meaning of the word good is very different than in its secular form. We (as Christians) cannot be good without God or his son Jesus who acts as a mediator between. It is hard to understand a point of view with out being a part of it. It is hard to combine faith and fact in a argument. Even more so when they are on opposing sides.

Justinec101

^^^

That clears me up a bit. . . But worries me more. Are you saying that since Christians believe that people are only good with god, that they view non-christians as "bad?", or impure or something, no matter what their actions are? Please clarify on this before I say any more.

*for the record I don't consider myself atheist but for the purpose of this conversation I don't think it really matters.

joeyr

You know the Adam and Eve story right? That made us sinful ( in the Christians view). We believe that Jesus’s death and resurrection freed our souls from that sin.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:2-4)

This is also one of main points that differentiates us from Judaism’s religious views, but that is not really important to the question. Think about a parent with two kids. He loves both of them, but he will reward the one who is most obedient, and yet spend most of time trying to sway the disobedient one, because no matter how much they disobey or don’t acknowledge him, he is still their father (Luke 15: 11-31).

Besides, Christ came for us all because we all are impure

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. (Romans 5:6)

The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. (I Timothy 1:14-16)

Gods views us all as his children and he loves us all. But in fact God cares greatly about saving non Christians. We are all born in sinful flesh, but christians strive to be reborn through Christ Jesus in the spirit. Jesus came here to save what was lost to sin…all of us (Luke 19:10)


P.S. Sorry about assuming you are a atheist and I apologize if this post is redundant or unclear.

Justinec101

I guess what I am getting at, is all of that seems open to personal interpretation. Is God going to save the sinners or does he expect other Christians to do it. The problem I have here is people taking a book as fact that is telling them to go make other people believe what they believe. You may believe that it is the best way to live by, but I don't. Imagine if someone created another religion, and you became the minority, and you felt that this religion was rediculous. But they kept on pressing it upon you, putting ZEUS or something on your money, the president says let us all pray to the "thunder god" in speeches. This may all sound rediculous to you, but this is exactly how I, and many other people feel. You have no question that you're right. You know you're going to heaven and you know I'm probably going to hell. Understand I'm not pointing at you specifically, but there are many people who have made it clear that they want this country run by the bible, and they want everyone else to do so as well. You may in fact leave everyone to their own devices, gays can be gay, women can get their abortions, etc. But there are people who follow the same religion you do, who read the same book that you quote from, but they take it a different way. They feel they need to press their beliefs upon everyone else. My question is, do you not think it is dangerous to have people so completely, so absolutely sure they're right, basing these huge issues on a book that is so open to interpretation?

BootCamp

Justinec101,
I think you read past a few points in other posts.

As stated before, God has given us free will to do as we see fit. Sinners choose to save themselves or choose not to - it's thier choice.

You're jumping to conclusions here. "Research" and "can be" are not difinitive. And it doesn't have to be "one or the other" - you've left out the influence of the "Lucifer factor". For a Biblical comparison, read the story of Job.

Obviously, we have laws that regulate our behavior. Laws are broken all of the time at ALL levels of society. Our laws are based in principle on the Ten Commandments - they just expand on the basis to meet our times. Our laws are written and enforced by mankind, and we don't/can't catch everyone that commits a crime - we're human, we're flawed. God knows what wrong we do - he's not flawed - and eventually, we WILL pay for our transgressions - everyone dies eventually and will be judged then. Even Christ paid for his selfishness/humanness (his reluctance to submit to crucifiction) by decending into hell before ascending into heaven.

Regarding your post: I believe the Catholic Church forbids "birth control", but opts for the "rhythm method" - periods of increased/decreased fertility levels. I can't imagine the use of birth control methods as being forbidden by all Christian denominations. Prevention is always a better option than reaction. As for "killing sperm", I don't know that the prevention of one cell joining with another is considered "killing". Would covering your mouth when you sneeze be considered "killing germs", or preventing the spread of them?

Let me end my participation in this thread by giving you this;
It is MUCH harder to prove something DOES exist than to prove it DOESN'T.
It doesn't matter what you name him, every major religion believes in ONE God.
The Bible is written in symbolism meant to transcend time, and YES, is open to personal interpretation. No two people see ANYTHING exactly the same way.

No matter how you split hairs on the subject and details of faith, the beliefs we Christians have are that;
1) We're all God's children - believers and non-believers alike.
2) We all commit sins. Forgiveness is given to ALL of those who ASK for it.
3) We're all on this Earth together and should work together to make it a better place for ALL.
4) God loves us ALL, whether we believe in him or not.
5) By accepting and believing in Jesus Christ as the lamb of God, we assure ourselves eternal life (obviously, not in earthly form).
How does any of this hurt anyone?

On a non-religious note (where this thread started in the first place), I believe that if you come to my house and stay as a guest, show respect for my rules and follow them, and show respect for my way of life. If you like it so much that you want to l

Jeremiah 29:11

BootCamp.....very well said.

By the way, your #

Quote:

5) By accepting and believing in Jesus Christ as the lamb of God, we assure ourselves eternal life

Everyone take note the #5 above is the most important decision you will ever make for youself in your whole life.
Why? Because this is an eternal decision.